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Thread: Does Classical Music Study Turn One Against Liberalism?

  1. #31
    Senior Member KenOC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beet131 View Post
    William Osborne stated the following from the article linked above:

    Germany’s public arts funding, for example, allows the country to have 23 times more full-time symphony orchestras per capita than the United States, and approximately 28 times more full-time opera houses. [1] In Europe, publicly funded cultural institutions are used to educate young people and this helps to maintain a high level of interest in the arts. In America, arts education faces constant cutbacks, which helps reduce interest.

    Aside from the previous discussions concerning liberal vs. conservative, why aren't we doing what Germany does in order to support the arts?
    Something smells a bit off about Mr. Osborne's statistics. As for funding to “increase interest” in classical music, I prefer to let people choose their own music without having somebody else’s preferences forced upon them – and at their cost!
    Last edited by KenOC; May-05-2018 at 18:21.


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  3. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenOC View Post
    Something smells a bit off about Mr. Osborne's statistics. As for funding to “increase interest” in classical music, I prefer to let people choose their own music without having somebody else’s preferences forced upon them – and at their cost!
    Taxpayer dollars shell out billions for sports stadiums across the USA. Why not Concert Halls, Orchestras and Opera Houses?

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    Senior Member KenOC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beet131 View Post
    Taxpayer dollars shell out billions for sports stadiums across the USA. Why not Concert Halls, Orchestras and Opera Houses?
    Those are local decisions by cities made in the expectation of increased tax revenues for payback. No federal government money is paid out for such things. If a city wants eight orchestras, more power to them! Of course every major orchestra in the US is a money-losing machine that depends on charity for most costs.

    Basically, people in the US are far more interested in professional sports than classical music. And why not?


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    Quote Originally Posted by KenOC View Post
    Those are local decisions by cities made in the expectation of increased tax revenues for payback. No federal government money is paid out for such things. If a city wants eight orchestras, more power to them! Of course every major orchestra in the US is a money-losing machine that depends on charity for most costs.

    Basically, people in the US are far more interested in professional sports than classical music. And why not?
    Forgive me, but it seems like a bit of an odd comment coming from you, KenOC. I wouldn't have expected that, but then again, I don't know you. I love sports too, but I love culture more and would wish for a more enlightened society. What we have in the USA is unbridled capitalism stampeding to an atrocious end.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KenOC View Post
    Those are local decisions by cities made in the expectation of increased tax revenues for payback. No federal government money is paid out for such things. If a city wants eight orchestras, more power to them! Of course every major orchestra in the US is a money-losing machine that depends on charity for most costs.

    Basically, people in the US are far more interested in professional sports than classical music. And why not?
    Am I missing something here?

    Indeed, as will be discussed below, in the Tax Reform Act of 1986 (TRA86), Congress attempted to do
    away with the federal tax subsidy for stadiums, but instead unwittingly provided an incentive for a federal
    government match for local government subsidies for stadiums. Another unintended consequence of TRA86
    was that it provided a disincentive for local governments to finance their subsidies to stadiums with taxes
    1 Energy and telecommunications infrastructure is provided primarily by private sector firms, and school facilities and equipment are provided
    largely by state and local governments. See Congressional Budget Office (2008) for information on spending for other types of infrastructure.
    that largely fall on those receiving the benefits of the stadium. For example, in order for a stadium
    to qualify for the federal tax expenditure, the local government cannot finance the bond by levying
    a tax on ticket purchases at the stadium. In other words, it cannot directly tax the very users of that
    benefit.

    The full article is linked below:

    https://www.brookings.edu/wp-content...ies_090816.pdf

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    Senior Member KenOC's Avatar
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    "I love sports too, but I love culture more..."

    Perhaps others feel differently, or perhaps their ideas of "culture" are not the same as yours. Do you really want to take their money and spend it to try to bring them around to your way of thinking?

    There's plenty of that going on already, I don't think we need more of it.

    Also: If we had 23 times as many orchestras, and 28 times as many opera houses (as Mr. Osborne suggests) do you really think that would change anything? For the most part, we have trouble filling the ones we have!
    Last edited by KenOC; May-05-2018 at 20:43.


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    Quote Originally Posted by KenOC View Post
    "
    I love sports too, but I love culture more
    ..." Perhaps others feel differently, or perhaps their ideas of "culture" are not the same as yours. Do you really want to take their money and spend it to try to bring them around to your way of thinking?

    There's plenty of that going on already, I don't think we need more of it.

    Also: If we had 23 times as many orchestras, and 28 times as many opera houses (as Mr. Osborne suggests) do you really think that would change anything? Think about it.
    Perhaps you're right. It would indeed be a shame to see dozens of empty concert halls. But, why does it work in Germany/Europe and not here?

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    Quote Originally Posted by KenOC View Post
    "I love sports too, but I love culture more..."

    Perhaps others feel differently, or perhaps their ideas of "culture" are not the same as yours. Do you really want to take their money and spend it to try to bring them around to your way of thinking?

    There's plenty of that going on already, I don't think we need more of it.

    Also: If we had 23 times as many orchestras, and 28 times as many opera houses (as Mr. Osborne suggests) do you really think that would change anything? For the most part, we have trouble filling the ones we have!
    Actually, that is precisely what is happening with sports, local or otherwise. There is always a huge contingent of citizens who do not want to spend their taxes on stadiums.

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    Senior Member KenOC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beet131 View Post
    Perhaps you're right. It would indeed be a shame to see dozens of empty concert halls. But, why does it work in Germany/Europe and not here?
    Who said it "worked" in Germany? It "works" in doing what, precisely? And at what public cost? Of course Germany is a sovereign country and can spend or waste public funds as they like. Lord knows we waste enough here.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Beet131 View Post
    Actually, that is precisely what is happening with sports, local or otherwise. There is always a huge contingent of citizens who do not want to spend their taxes on stadiums.
    And there is an even larger contingent of citizens who do not want their taxes spent on concert halls and opera houses.

    I am one that does not want my taxes spent on both stadiums and arts facilities or any arts organizations. That is not, or should not be, the function of government.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KenOC View Post
    Who said it "worked" in Germany? It "works" in doing what, precisely? And at what public cost? Of course Germany is a sovereign country and can spend or waste public funds as they like. Lord knows we waste enough here.
    William Osborne, quoted above, gave high praise to the support for rich cultural exposure in Germany. You stated that something smelled a bit off about Osborne's statistics. What doesn't seem accurate to you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArsMusica View Post
    And there is an even larger contingent of citizens who do not want their taxes spent on concert halls and opera houses.

    I am one that does not want my taxes spent on both stadiums and arts facilities or any arts organizations. That is not, or should not be, the function of government.
    What is the function of government if not to improve the lot of its people?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beet131 View Post
    Indeed, as will be discussed below, in the Tax Reform Act of 1986 (TRA86), Congress attempted to do away with the federal tax subsidy for stadiums, but instead unwittingly provided an incentive for a federal government match for local government subsidies for stadiums...
    Beet131, sorry, I missed that post.

    It’s true that there is or has been an indirect subsidy for municipalities paying a portion of the costs for new stadiums. This arises from the use of tax-exempt bonds for borrowing the public portion of the financing.

    The same, in fact, is true of orchestras, which are universally formed as tax-exempt charitable organizations. If I contribute $100 to my orchestra and my marginal tax rate is 30%, I have reduced my taxes by $30 – a reduction that must be made up for by the entire tax-paying public.

    A major orchestra has an annual budget of perhaps $50 million, or which (typically) 60% is covered by donations. The loss in federal revenues in that case would be about $9 million, which amounts to an indirect federal subsidy of that amount.


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  27. #44
    Senior Member KenOC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beet131 View Post
    What is the function of government if not to improve the lot of its people?
    In the US, the function of government is clearly laid out in the Constitution. There is not a lot in there about "improving the lot of the people," perhaps because it was believed the people would take care of that themselves without depending on government. And there is certainly nothing about improving the people themselves, for instance by forcing "fine art" upon them.


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    Isn't this just another reason to have public support for the arts? It hadn't even occurred to me before, but it is encouraging.
    According to the National Endowment for the Arts, a rich cultural exposure gives an economic boost to the country.

    Report 3: The Arts and Cultural Production Satellite Account (ACPSA)

    The ACPSA, a partnership between the NEA and the Department of Commerce's Bureau of Economic Analysis, is the first federal effort to provide an in-depth analysis of the arts and cultural sector's contributions to current-dollar gross domestic product (GDP), a measure of the final dollar value of all goods and services produced in the United States. The revised estimates reveal the arts are a bigger driver of GDP and jobs than previously estimated. Among the new estimates are:

    In 2012, arts and cultural production contributed more than $698 billion to the U.S. economy, or 4.32 percent to the U.S. Gross Domestic Product, more than construction ($586.7B) or transportation and warehousing ($464.1B).
    4.7 million workers were employed in the production of arts and cultural goods, receiving $334.9 billion in compensation.
    Arts and cultural spending has a ripple effect on the overall economy, boosting both commodities and jobs. For example, for every 100 jobs created from new demand for the arts, 62 additional jobs are also created.

    The full article is linked below:

    https://www.arts.gov/news/2015/surpr...a-reports-arts

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