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Thread: Does Classical Music Study Turn One Against Liberalism?

  1. #76
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    I find it interesting that over the years, I have become more musically conservative and extremely politically progressive/leftist.

    I've yet to figure out why there's such a disconnect in my musical ideology versus political ideology.
    I'm not even a conservative when it comes to visual art either. Really puzzles me.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by dogen View Post
    I don't think Jordan Peterson is indicative of academia turning against liberal ideas.
    Jordan Peterson is shunned by the majority of academia.
    In fact, a lot of his work and theories have been widely discredited.

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  4. #78
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    After being a member of a couple of liberal/progressive groups on Facebook (I'm not on Facebook anymore), it seems to me that part of the problem is that the liberalism of today has no vision of what they see the future should look like.

    In many ways they are like the conservatives. They are looking backwards to a "better time" when labor unions were strong and Great Society programs. I personally think that they need a vision for the future and be able to clearly articulate it. Whoever writes up the position statements of the Democratic Party or the Green Party need to articulate it to the average voter.

    One thing that I would like to say. I was surprised many years ago when I came on classical forums and made many "friends" from all over the world. It was like there were no boundaries. It's all about the music. That alone is huge. The average person is very similar in all countries. The difference might be economic or class position within their own country. But we all come together to listen to classical music that we love. That's pretty neat.
    I am eclectic in my taste in music. Except "Ultra-Modern", Country Music, and Blues."

  5. #79
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    no, I think its the policies of liberal politicians that turn anybody with a decent job against liberalism

    and also, people tend to go conservative as they get closer to retirement, so if you studied classical music for 30 years and at the end were more conservative, that's not classical music, that's just knowing which side your bread is buttered on

    the time for social upheaval and bringing down apparatus of capitalist society is early in life before you have a mortgage and a family and are planning a retirement

    revolutions tend to throw wrenches into your 401K

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    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    I think the government should subsidize arts, because these are forms which need funding because they lie outside the parameters of industry and consumer markets. Art is done independently of these institutions, by artists. This could include any kind of music in any form, by any people, including orchestras. It could be free jazz, noise music, electronic experimentation, anything.
    "The way out is through the door. Why is it that no one will use this method?"
    -Confucious

    "In Spring! In the creation of art it must be as it is in Spring!" -Arnold Schoenberg

    "We only become what we are by the radical and deep-seated refusal of that which others have made us." -Jean-Paul Sartre

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    Senior Member KenOC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millionrainbows View Post
    I think the government should subsidize arts, because these are forms which need funding because they lie outside the parameters of industry and consumer markets. Art is done independently of these institutions, by artists. This could include any kind of music in any form, by any people, including orchestras. It could be free jazz, noise music, electronic experimentation, anything.
    Rap? Country? Easy listening? Or, if you're only interested in music that can't support itself, how about bagpipes? Singing through megaphones? Peruvian nose flute? Bulgarian burp music?

    Or, if as seems likely to me, you want the government to subsidize only the music you prefer, I'll be happy to write my congressman and ask him to spend my money on your musical tastes.
    Last edited by KenOC; Aug-01-2018 at 22:14.


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    Quote Originally Posted by KenOC View Post
    Rap? Country? Easy listening? Or, if you're only interested in music that can't support itself, how about bagpipes? Singing through megaphones? Peruvian nose flute? Bulgarian burp music?

    Or, if as seems likely to me, you want the government to subsidize only the music you prefer, I'll be happy to write my congressman and ask him to spend my money on your musical tastes.
    No, because rap, country, and easy listening are radio formats that are already supported.

    I would imagine that bagpipe music is supported with competitions and recordings (one of which I have) by the Scottish government, or whatever.

    If "singing through megaphones" was an aspect of an art project worthy of funding, I'd say yes.

    Peruvian and Bulgarian music are probably supported by their respective governments. Remember the fabulously successful Bulgarian Women's Choir tour a while back, and the series of recordings on Nonesuch/Electra which followed? Good stuff, definitely worthy of funding.

    Last edited by millionrainbows; Aug-02-2018 at 22:17.
    "The way out is through the door. Why is it that no one will use this method?"
    -Confucious

    "In Spring! In the creation of art it must be as it is in Spring!" -Arnold Schoenberg

    "We only become what we are by the radical and deep-seated refusal of that which others have made us." -Jean-Paul Sartre

  10. #83
    Senior Member regenmusic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by E Cristobal Poveda View Post
    Jordan Peterson is shunned by the majority of academia.
    In fact, a lot of his work and theories have been widely discredited.
    Any proof to back this up? I think a lot are on the side of him and Camille Paglia.

    "Most of academia" will do whatever it is to keep their job.

    This isn't academia, but Hollywood is in the same Orwellian confusion as is a lot of academia today:


    Celebrities that Hate PC Culture Vol 21 - Don't Be A Victim (compilation)
    Last edited by regenmusic; Aug-06-2018 at 04:23.

  11. #84
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    https://pitchfork.com/news/stereolab...new-statement/

    I am a moderate. I play both sides against themselves.

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    For all I know, after listening to the Ninth, I always feel like embracing every living thing on this planet – every man, animal and plant – and say, I love you – personally! This is, in concreto, a most progressive (or liberal, in American nomenclature) response to “knowing” classical music.

    As regards the other issue, whether governments ought to subsidise the fine arts, I always think of Beethoven and his sudden inability – when at last financially secured by a patron – to produce anything at all. It seems as though he needed the struggle somehow... as though his art thrived only in opposition (to life’s crude conditions). This also happened to Solzhenitsyn while in exile to Vermont: his soul "clogged up" and he could not write a single (valuable) miniature.
    Last edited by Forss; Aug-10-2018 at 01:23.

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    Senior Member philoctetes's Avatar
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    Emotions and politics do not mix. "Toxic masculinity" is the topic here, but nobody is admitting it. It's time we separated those two words and treated men better rather than forcing them into crime.

    Petersen and Paglia are on the front of today's issues and it takes guts to stand up to people who throw cheap shots at them for not being chill about all the garbage in our society. And who even cares what the fools in academia think? They only know how to preach to privileged 20-somethings who are forced to listen to them, who then leave college and can't get a job.

    Funding for the arts? Pull out your wallet and start supporting those artists yourself!! Look at Lincoln Center's agenda now. Why pay for what I don't like? State-funded art is typically inferior and utilitarian, but we now live in an age where many people can't tell the difference.

    The OP was obviously intended as bait for political conflict. I'm in.
    Last edited by philoctetes; Aug-10-2018 at 17:01.

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    Senior Member eugeneonagain's Avatar
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    Strange, both Peterson and Paglia are in academia, because it is actually made up of many voices. Yet when some mavericks want to make a commotion it's much easier to play the role of 'courageous lone voice among the herd' and then make speeches based upon personal prejudices and opinion.

    There is definitely a discussion to be had about men, masculinity, and men's roles, but not baying angry lunatics consuming Peterson videos and going about bleating 'cultural marxism!!'.
    "I expect I shall have to die beyond my means." — Oscar Wilde, on accepting a glass of champagne on his deathbed.

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  18. #88
    Senior Member philoctetes's Avatar
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    To say someone is "in academia" might just not have much meaning anymore, really, not when stated just for rhetorical convenience. Nor may it be meaningful to speak of "many voices" in academia, when we know that's not really the truth.

    You can't fool me. I spent my time in the enlightened hallows of California universities, and did all the things that were supposed to make me better, and have a sibling teaching in a university today. Over and over, short-term social fashions are not strong enough to stand the long-term test of political application, and are usually abandoned by the next generation of progressives who can't see the cycle of failure.

    So, I can run my own tests on the "many voices" postulate, and how it fits my own observations, and judge for myself. Reading the above post, it appears to stop fitting with "but not baying angry lunatics", i.e. men to be ignored in a convo about masculinity. That's equivalent to saying grievous women can't discuss feminism.

    While my natural humanity has been attacked from so many angles, and I've done all the hard work I need to live with who I am, I am somehow at fault for this according to people who haven't done the work. Fix yourself before you think you can fix others, and listen to those who have done the work.
    Last edited by philoctetes; Aug-11-2018 at 01:04.

  19. #89
    Senior Member philoctetes's Avatar
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    Away from the rhetorical jousting re academia, I don't really support Peterson except for his role as a counter-force, reminds me of "Iron John" in the 80s which was also nutty. It's kinda silly to see a lot of single moms adopt him as a proxy mentor for their sons, but I'm not sure what other resources they have, so apparently he fills a need.

    I don't lump Paglia with him, she's got ten times the spine and hits her target more often. It's true that Jordan seems angry or even hurt and it's not a good look, but there's evidence for you that one more myth about men - that they "age better" - is BS, and our expectancy is not rising like women's.

    Michelle Obama recently made a big deal about men not being social with each other. Darned if you do, darned if you don't...
    Last edited by philoctetes; Aug-11-2018 at 01:00.

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  21. #90
    Senior Member eugeneonagain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by philoctetes View Post
    To say someone is "in academia" might just not have much meaning anymore, really, not when stated just for rhetorical convenience. Nor may it be meaningful to speak of "many voices" in academia, when we know that's not really the truth.
    Except that they are academics working in academia, which is pretty much the standard definition, not rhetorical convenience. Certainly no more than the rhetorical convenience of pretending that academia is some kind of code-word for 'Leninists'. Only people who have never seen the inside of academia think it is not comprised of many different views, or perhaps the 'mavericks' who don't get a hearing for their quackery on the inside so have to go with a megaphone to the likes of You Tube.

    Quote Originally Posted by philoctetes View Post
    You can't fool me. I spent my time in the enlightened hallows of California universities, and did all the things that were supposed to make me better, and have a sibling teaching in a university today. Over and over, short-term social fashions are not strong enough to stand the long-term test of political application, and are usually abandoned by the next generation of progressives who can't see the cycle of failure.

    You can't fool me either. I've worked in universities in three different countries and the general make-up is the same. I can't say if this is the case for American universities, but if it is so (I doubt it) then it is a cultural problem and not academic. The sort of 'left-wing' conspiracy accusation levelled at American academia is doubly laughable in a country that has always been more-or-less dominated by the right-wing in political life. The ideas just live in the universities, as is only right in a place where ALL ideas are considered, but now it it is a fairy story about how such ideas are piled into the heads of unwitting students.

    Quote Originally Posted by philoctetes View Post
    So, I can run my own tests on the "many voices" postulate, and how it fits my own observations, and judge for myself. Reading the above post, it appears to stop fitting with "but not baying angry lunatics", i.e. men to be ignored in a convo about masculinity. That's equivalent to saying grievous women can't discuss feminism.
    You're mistaken on two counts: first I didn't state or even imply that men should be counted out of that discussion, and secondly men aren't counted out of the discussion. To think so is to be wilfully blind for ideological reasons. There is no 'suppression of men's voices', this is the big lie. There has however been a long 'challenge' to ideas of male dominance which has not always been carried out rigorously or helpfully and I'm glad to see that get challenged in turn. However when some quack starts raving about 'cultural marxism' I'm no longer interested.

    Quote Originally Posted by philoctetes View Post
    While my natural humanity has been attacked from so many angles, and I've done all the hard work I need to live with who I am, I am somehow at fault for this according to people who haven't done the work. Fix yourself before you think you can fix others, and listen to those who have done the work.
    Everybody is and has been busy pal, not just you.
    "I expect I shall have to die beyond my means." — Oscar Wilde, on accepting a glass of champagne on his deathbed.

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