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Thread: Does Classical Music Study Turn One Against Liberalism?

  1. #91
    Senior Member MacLeod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by regenmusic View Post
    Socialism (or indirectly you could call that Marxist influenced) has become a type of counterfeit Christianity, a replacement for many Judeo-Christian ideals. It traditionally attacks them in schools for it's ability to arise. People aren't stupid, they understand this well. They understand history because it happens right before their eyes.
    I think I'm probably stupid - I don't understand this well at all.

    History happens before our eyes only in the literal sense that we are witness to events occurring now. Actually, what to make of those events, especially if you're not a witness, but a receiver of 2nd and 3rd hand versions of events, is much more difficult. People don't understand history at all. If they did, they could have prevented many a historical disaster, such as the rise of Hitler or the sub-prime mortgage crash.
    "I left TC for a hiatus, but since no-one noticed my absence, I came back again."

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  3. #92
    Senior Member philoctetes's Avatar
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    I have made up my mind and all I see are weak assertions not accurate, useful, or consistent, that those who see quite well are blind, or on "voodoo", etc. Low life trash talk that proves I am right while saying I'm wrong. And all it took was three posts to confirm this ideologist can't even carry my water.

    So, nobody changed my mind about a thing, and there is nothing to dispute unless it's more productive than this.

    About the OP: What happened to me politically has nothing to do with classical music, and any connection would be very indirect, and I could write a long memoir to explain but I don't want to. Let's just say that has lot has happened in this world since the Kennedy assassinations, just for perspective. I've always voted for Dems but I no longer feel that I have to, despite all the pressure to do so.

    One reason is that they now push hostile agendas intent on either destroying or conquering traditional institutions. They have become saboteurs of our quality of life while demanding that they have more of it without working for it. ...

    While the debate about "toxic masculinity" continues about men who struggle with all the negative pressure on them nowadays, ....

    ....

    Obama was the last straw for me. I voted for him and watched him go sour on his country. Or maybe it's not his country, I'm not sure about these assumptions anymore. He botched some of his health care promises, and we still have medical fraud rampant in the industry. Aside from that he was compromised by bottomless narcissism into continuing the centuries-long global tradition of waging wars on foreign soil for "regime change", destabilizing of independent nations and massive displacements of people who kill each other in seeking refuge.

    So you can have your open borders and your hate laws, if you can keep them, but I'll settle for protecting my simple natural rights to free speech, to bear arms (see Seven Samurai) and to call out fraud when I see it. And I see lots of it these days, especially in the non-profit sector that is the economic base of Democratic organizers. Here in California, the upcoming midterms are sure to be rigged, given the sanctuary cabal headed by Brown, Pelosi, Schiff, Lieu, Harris, and others. And I was on their side only 4 years ago, but no more.

    Anything else? Back to sticking pins in the doll...
    Last edited by mmsbls; Aug-13-2018 at 08:06. Reason: Removed inappropriate content

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  5. #93
    Senior Member eugeneonagain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by philoctetes View Post
    I have made up my mind and all I see are weak assertions not accurate, useful, or consistent, that those who see quite well are blind, or on "voodoo", etc. Low life trash talk that proves I am right while saying I'm wrong. And all it took was three posts to confirm this ideologist can't even carry my water.

    So, nobody changed my mind about a thing, and there is nothing to dispute unless it's more productive than this.
    Bully for you. I don't see anything but empty assertions based on your uniformed opinion and the ravings of quacks. You've come up with nothing of substance yet are parading about in this thread like the voice of reason with all the facts at your fingertips.
    I don't care about trying to change your mind, I'm replying to your false assertions and claims so they don't remain unchallenged.

    Quote Originally Posted by philoctetes View Post
    One reason is that they now push hostile agendas intent on either destroying or conquering traditional institutions. They have become saboteurs of our quality of life while demanding that they have more of it without working for it. ...
    This is complete hogwash, you need to actually get out of your chair and go outside. Plus, the 'neo-liberals' and the 'liberals' don't refer to the same thing. Neo-liberalism is essentially a reference to the modern version of laissez-faire economics, not 'social progressivism'.
    The effects of economic immigration have not been properly managed and much of it has been a total failure. On the other hand there are much deeper reasons behind why poor countries stay poor and consequently why their citizens try to get into Europe. Since a large number of the people in Europe and the US are in denial about those reasons the default position has to be: 'blame it on the liberals/dems/socialists/whateverists...quack quack'.

    Quote Originally Posted by philoctetes View Post
    ....
    Much of that is diversionary rubbish. It's not a gender issue, it is a class and economic power issue. While this wasteful battle of 'men's rights' and 'gender' is being fought out by stupid old men and misguided youth, the fate of men (white, black, gay, straight...) at the bottom of the economic ladder who have lost livelihoods because of crackpot right-wing political-economy worsens and they get dragged into these pseudo-political battles promising answers and delivering entertainment drivel.

    Quote Originally Posted by philoctetes View Post
    So you can have your open borders and your hate laws, if you can keep them, but I'll settle for protecting my rights to free speech, to bear arms, and to call out fraud when I see it. And I see lots of it these days.

    Anything else? Back to sticking pins in the doll...
    And it's serving you so well isn't it? If all that age and experience had been used wisely you might not be trying to pin the blame for something arising out of corrupt economics on so-called destabilisation of traditional institutions.

    Now you can write another long post pretending nothing was said or answered. Pop your blindfold back on.
    Last edited by mmsbls; Aug-13-2018 at 08:07. Reason: Removed deleted portions of quotes
    "Mediocrity knows nothing higher than itself; but talent instantly recognises genius."

    Sherlock Holmes - The Valley of Fear.

  6. #94
    Senior Member philoctetes's Avatar
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    I've learned to accept faux outrage as comedy. Just watch late night TV (I don't).

  7. #95
    Senior Member eugeneonagain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millionrainbows View Post
    There is a lot of 'extraneous' content in eugeneonagain's post above, bordering on ad hominem abuse. He should tone it down.
    When you get appointed as moderator you can do your worst, until then...
    "Mediocrity knows nothing higher than itself; but talent instantly recognises genius."

    Sherlock Holmes - The Valley of Fear.

  8. #96
    Senior Member eugeneonagain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by philoctetes View Post
    I've learned to accept faux outrage as comedy. Just watch late night TV (I don't).
    You must be a fine comedian then because your three posts up there are full of that fake outrage. What strikes me is that the term 'faux outrage' is another of those current phrases in the flimsy armoury of the complainers.

    Count me out, I'm just a farm boy at heart; completely uninterested in the tantrums of disgruntled pampered people.
    "Mediocrity knows nothing higher than itself; but talent instantly recognises genius."

    Sherlock Holmes - The Valley of Fear.

  9. #97
    Senior Member philoctetes's Avatar
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    "Competely uninterested" in "the flimsy armoury of the complainers"

    Then stop complaining about it, farm boy academic.

    Must be time for some Mission of Burma.
    Last edited by philoctetes; Aug-11-2018 at 21:42.

  10. #98
    Senior Member eugeneonagain's Avatar
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    I'm not complaining about it; I'm actually replying to the tedious complaints. A wise fellow like yourself ought to have realised it by now.

    I haven't been employed at any educational institutions for a while and don't expect or intend to be. I'm not an academic.
    "Mediocrity knows nothing higher than itself; but talent instantly recognises genius."

    Sherlock Holmes - The Valley of Fear.

  11. #99
    Senior Member MacLeod's Avatar
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    Never mind "faux outrage". How about...how do I put this politely..."completely incomprehensible"? I haven't the faintest idea what philoctetes's posts have to do with the OP, which asked a reasonable question that doesn't entail standing on a soapbox spouting one's politics.
    "I left TC for a hiatus, but since no-one noticed my absence, I came back again."

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  13. #100
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    The thread has turned from questions about classical music and political leaning to pure politics. Let's get back to music and the possible effect it's study may have on political ideology.

  14. #101
    Senior Member MacLeod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by regenmusic View Post
    It was stated in the title of the thread [...]
    What "it"?

    As I pointed out earlier, the OP asks two different questions, and whilst some have given a broad answer to the title ("listening to CM has made me more/less conservative/liberal"), others have preferred to consider the second question without reference to music at all and simply explain why they reject/embrace a particular political viewpoint.

    Quote Originally Posted by regenmusic View Post
    The nature of classical music verses pop music speaks to the topic
    What this has to do with the price of bread I'm not sure...
    Last edited by MacLeod; Aug-13-2018 at 06:49.
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  15. #102
    Senior Member Varick's Avatar
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    To the OP: There is absolutely no correlation between one's love/enjoyment/experience in classical music and politics. I have met lovers of classical music who are conservative politically and other's who are leftist. One has absolutely nothing to do with the other.

    Now, on terms: having studied the etymology of political thought since my teenage years, the term "liberal" has evolved throughout the past 50 years or so. The classic JFK "Liberal" is by today's standards a conservative. Leftism has pretty much taken over liberalism and the Democratic Party. I use the term "leftist" or "Progressive" instead of "Liberal." Liberalism (JFK type) was against leftism. I am pretty much a classic JFK Liberal which pretty much means I'm a conservative.

    The ONLY difference between a conservative and a JFK Liberal is size of government, and it's quite a big difference. Liberalism has so much more in common with conservatism than it does with leftism. Alan Dershowitz is a classic liberal as is Dave Rubin to give two examples. George Soros and Harry Reid are leftists as two examples.

    So, it's important to get terms correct. Then, we can have clarity.

    V
    Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.

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  17. #103
    Senior Member eugeneonagain's Avatar
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    It is important and it's also worth noting that discussing general political nomenclature among an international membership doesn't mean just defining terms as used in the United States. However I don't think it's even true to say that general liberalism has been chased out of the US Democratic Party, it is still the core feature; no "left-wing radicals" are leading that party, they're all multi-millionaires in bed with corporate America. That myth needs putting to bed immediately.

    George Soros 'leftist'? A billionaire whose corporate structured foundation basically operates as a funding operation for social infrastructure where governments fail or deliberately choose not to carry out their role? I don't think so. Only a right-wing mentality could imagine so.

    Cultural conservatism, as distinct from specifically political, is much more widely dispersed. That anarcho-syndicalist George Orwell had some very conservative views about culture. I have some conservative views about culture as I'm sure most people do.
    Last edited by eugeneonagain; Aug-13-2018 at 11:32.
    "Mediocrity knows nothing higher than itself; but talent instantly recognises genius."

    Sherlock Holmes - The Valley of Fear.

  18. #104
    Senior Member MacLeod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varick View Post
    To the OP: There is absolutely no correlation between one's love/enjoyment/experience in classical music and politics. I have met lovers of classical music who are conservative politically and other's who are leftist. One has absolutely nothing to do with the other.

    Now, on terms:
    Thanks for this part of your answer. You add weight to those who think that there is causal connection.

    The rest of your post (and, consequently, eugene's reply) has overlooked the mods request to keep away from pure politics. You run the risk that the thread is closed before it can be shown that what you, eugene and I agree on is a majority view.
    Last edited by MacLeod; Aug-13-2018 at 14:55.
    "I left TC for a hiatus, but since no-one noticed my absence, I came back again."

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  20. #105
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    I have temporarily closed the thread. After a comment to keep posts focused on political ideology and music, there were not only purely political comments but also several insults thrown around. We'll review the thread and decide how to proceed.

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