Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 16 to 29 of 29

Thread: You need a subwoofer

  1. #16
    Senior Member Haydn67's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    3,688
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EddieRUKiddingVarese View Post
    Just get some decent speakers and you don't need a sub
    Typically, I agree, but used wisely and for some, a good subwoofer can fit the bill.
    Last edited by Haydn67; May-16-2018 at 14:26.

  2. Likes EddieRUKiddingVarese liked this post
  3. #17
    Senior Member Haydn67's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    3,688
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JEC View Post
    If that was true, movie theaters wouldn't have subs.
    The volume level in movie theaters is insane, and so are the road nuts whose pounding car woofers call attention to their ego driven inconsiderateness.

  4. Likes EddieRUKiddingVarese, Marc liked this post
  5. #18
    Senior Member science's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    12,472
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    49

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Ante View Post
    In my case, I struggle to hear what a person is saying to me if the background is noisy. It's comical how little background noise is needed to prevent me from understanding what anyone is saying.
    Liberty for wolves is death to the lambs.

  6. Likes EddieRUKiddingVarese, Dan Ante liked this post
  7. #19
    Senior Member Andolink's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Scottsdale, Arizona
    Posts
    1,513
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    IMO, a sub (or subs) is absolutely necessary for most hi-fi systems. True full range speakers (20Hz-20kHz) are rare. If you got 'em then more power to you but most speakers, including floorstanders begin rolling off at around 80-50 Hz and to accurately reproduce an orchestral bass drum you really need to get down to 25Hz or lower. And I mean a high quality sub here, not the kind of sub used for theater effects. Accurate bass, well integrated with your main speakers should never sound boomy or draw attention to itself.
    PS Audio DirectStream Memory Player>>PS Audio DirectStream Junior DAC >>Simaudio Moon Nēo 340i >>Dynaudio Confidence C1 II's + SVS SB12-NSD
    Headphones: PS Audio DMP>>PS Audio DSJ DAC (balanced XLR) >>Balanced Cross-feed X6B >>Audio-gd NFB-6 (balanced XLR) >>Norse (now Norne) Skuld 2 Litz UPOCC >>HiFiMan HE-500

  8. Likes Joe B liked this post
  9. #20
    New Member
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Posts
    6
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Subs can be quite counterproductive in the average domestic listening environment unless you put in a lot of work. I'd love a true full-range system but don't have the space/cash to make it viable.
    Three things to consider ref. the comparison to theatres and home cinemas:
    1) A large part of the purpose of subbass frequencies in films is big booming explody sound effects, not nice controlled low-end reproduction of orchestral parts. In this respect it doesn't matter too much if the sound is a bit flabby and the time-domain reproduction isn't particularly crisp as it's just a car blowing up or similar;
    2) Good cinemas use systems like Dolby Atmos with a well-defined specifications for audio reproduction (even if not always perfectly implemented, and all to frequently turned up unpleasantly loud ) ;
    3) Space is not a significant constraint, and this is perhaps the biggest difference compared to all but the best domestic listening environments.

    The main challenge with lower frequencies in smaller spaces is that you're likely to be generating audio with wavelengths close to the dimensions of the room.
    Consider a typical room of say 20'x15' with a 10' high ceiling. In such a setting, you'll experience so-called room modes at about 28Hz and 37.5Hz (roughly A0 and D1). This can be mitigated to an a degree by using various types of acoustic treatment and that's usually the approach taken in recording studios, but this is costly and complex to do well. Without this, any sub or large speaker putting out a significant amount of acoustic energy in this frequency range is going to end up causing all sorts of constructive and destructive interference, so you'll potentially find that in some parts of the room the bass sounds very uneven, with areas having noticeably louder sound at certain frequencies and others having far less - broadly, by extending the frequency range you're probably going to have an overall poorer quality of sound.

    IMO for a domestic environment there isn't much to be gained from speakers that cover a range beyond about 50Hz-20kHz, unless you're lucky enough to have a room that can truly take more.

    Obviously it's all about personal preference, and classical isn't like a lot of modern music where there is an almost intentional bias towards bass so the effect will be mitigated to some extent, but I'd rather have clean reproduction and lose a bit at the bottom end.

  10. Likes EddieRUKiddingVarese, Marc liked this post
  11. #21
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Paradise, Montana ... on
    Posts
    1,799
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JEC View Post
    Hi folks,

    ... by all means, GET A SUBWOOFER to listen to classical music.

    Of course, classical music is more than big symphonic music featuring tubas and double basses, or organ chorales! In fact, I enjoy solo guitar music, and that music features sound strongly in the mid-range. A good pair of mid-range speakers is all that is needed to fully enjoy the sound of a classical guitar. In fact, sub-woofers, if connected (especially) to low quality equipment, may simply foul up the sound with low level noise. A quality system will playback just the material in the recording, and if that recording has no lower frequency matter, a sub is quite unnecessary.

    But of course I have a sub wired into my tubed amplifier to enhance my rather good midrange speakers (from Triangle). And it works well when I do play those huge tuba and double bass heavy symphonies, or organ chorales! Still, if the bass is overcompensated (as it is in many of the kids' automobiles I hear thumping down the road in front of my home) then one is doing only a disservice to the music as recorded. And with classical music, one should probably seek as true a sound (true to what was recorded) as possible. Big bass may miss the point completely!

    All things in proper perspective.

  12. Likes EddieRUKiddingVarese liked this post
  13. #22
    New Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Posts
    10
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    I also think a sub greatly enhances the listening experience. Even some big speakers, like my Cerwin Vega D15EE drop off very fast under 60 hz.

    My Grundig Box 5600 (my daily speakers) drop off at 80 hz. With my 12" DIY sub and a Mini DSP as a crossover, it sounds sublime to my ears

  14. #23
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Posts
    179
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GrotesqueFugue View Post
    The main challenge with lower frequencies in smaller spaces is that you're likely to be generating audio with wavelengths close to the dimensions of the room.
    Consider a typical room of say 20'x15' with a 10' high ceiling. In such a setting, you'll experience so-called room modes at about 28Hz and 37.5Hz (roughly A0 and D1). This can be mitigated to an a degree by using various types of acoustic treatment and that's usually the approach taken in recording studios, but this is costly and complex to do well. Without this, any sub or large speaker putting out a significant amount of acoustic energy in this frequency range is going to end up causing all sorts of constructive and destructive interference, so you'll potentially find that in some parts of the room the bass sounds very uneven, with areas having noticeably louder sound at certain frequencies and others having far less - broadly, by extending the frequency range you're probably going to have an overall poorer quality of sound.

    IMO for a domestic environment there isn't much to be gained from speakers that cover a range beyond about 50Hz-20kHz, unless you're lucky enough to have a room that can truly take more.
    While I agree with what you say about the challenge of lower frequencies and the differences between cinemas and home theaters, I can't agree with your conclusion that no sub-bass is better than bad sub-bass. In fact, most all modern AVRs come with bass management that help to alleviate the problem of room modes/nodes, and there are plenty of other options for further alleviating these issues such as room treatment, multiple subs, or just careful consideration of placement. Audio science has confirmed that deep, extended bass is pretty crucial to the enjoyment of sound systems: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B97...?ddrp=1&hl=en#

  15. #24
    Senior Member Marc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    271
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mbhaub View Post
    In most concert halls with most orchestras and most orchestral music, the bass isn't that strong.
    +1

    Quote Originally Posted by mbhaub View Post
    [...] The power of a sub pumps the bass up abnormally high.
    +1

    Quote Originally Posted by mbhaub View Post
    With music for organ though it's essential as far as I'm concerned. The Bach, Vierne, Widor should rattle the windows.
    I'm not sure about Bach (and many other baroque organ composers, either).
    I have attended loads of (Bach/baroque) organ concerts and a good balance between the voices/parts is a necessity IMO. And most of Bach's works (even the grand free works for plenum) fare very well on organs with 'only' 16ft pedals.

    Quote Originally Posted by mbhaub View Post
    It comes down to personal taste: do you want a realistic representation (as far as possible) or a false one with pumped up bass like a rock concert or something? And it depends on your neighbors.
    +1 (especially i.c. the neighbours )

  16. #25
    New Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Posts
    10
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    I have to disagree with there not being a lot of bass in a live performance.

    I have only been to one live Symphonie; it was at Die Glocke in Bremen, Germany. They played the Overture to Coriolan from Beethoven and his 5th Symphonie.

    I was very surprised at how prominent the bass was. Prior to that, I thought maybe I had too much bass in my system (for the audiophile purists ). It turns out I have it dialed in pretty good

  17. #26
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Posts
    1,165
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    +1
    I'm not sure about Bach (and many other baroque organ composers, either).
    I have attended loads of (Bach/baroque) organ concerts and a good balance between the voices/parts is a necessity IMO. And most of Bach's works (even the grand free works for plenum) fare very well on organs with 'only' 16ft pedals.
    Yes, I agree with that.

    A good subwoofer is rather expensive, and ones money are better spent by using them for well balanced speakers, which do not "need" assistance from a subwoofer.

  18. #27
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Posts
    179
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by premont View Post
    Yes, I agree with that.

    A good subwoofer is rather expensive, and ones money are better spent by using them for well balanced speakers, which do not "need" assistance from a subwoofer.
    This is really a myth. Any speakers with big enough woofers to cover sub-frequencies are going to be large and expensive anyway, and the problem with using speakers for subs is that you're stuck with them in that location, which will rarely be the ideal location for good bass. You'd be better off buying small bookshelf speakers and then several smaller subs that you can place in the ideal locations. The only problem then would be getting them to work together, but most modern AVRs make that relatively easy.

  19. #28
    Senior Member Marc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    271
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Judas Priest Fan View Post
    I have to disagree with there not being a lot of bass in a live performance.

    I have only been to one live Symphonie; it was at Die Glocke in Bremen, Germany. They played the Overture to Coriolan from Beethoven and his 5th Symphonie.

    I was very surprised at how prominent the bass was. Prior to that, I thought maybe I had too much bass in my system (for the audiophile purists ). It turns out I have it dialed in pretty good
    Funny to read this.
    I have been to hundreds of concerts (including quite a few with symphony orchestras) in various concert halls and I never experienced a prominent bass when the full orchestra was expected to play. I guess that your experience could be caused by either the conductor's choice (and mistake?) of balance (letting the bass sections play louder or opting for an orchestral strength/partition that benefits the bass sections) or by the hall's acoustics. But since Die Glocke is known for its splendid acoustics, I think that the last possibility is out of the question.

  20. #29
    Senior Member Joe B's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Northeastern CT
    Posts
    1,490
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Andolink View Post
    IMO, a sub (or subs) is absolutely necessary for most hi-fi systems. True full range speakers (20Hz-20kHz) are rare. If you got 'em then more power to you but most speakers, including floorstanders begin rolling off at around 80-50 Hz and to accurately reproduce an orchestral bass drum you really need to get down to 25Hz or lower. And I mean a high quality sub here, not the kind of sub used for theater effects. Accurate bass, well integrated with your main speakers should never sound boomy or draw attention to itself.
    Quote Originally Posted by Judas Priest Fan View Post
    I also think a sub greatly enhances the listening experience. Even some big speakers, like my Cerwin Vega D15EE drop off very fast under 60 hz.

    My Grundig Box 5600 (my daily speakers) drop off at 80 hz. With my 12" DIY sub and a Mini DSP as a crossover, it sounds sublime to my ears
    I think both of these posts are on target.

    The object of a sub woofer is to give you the full 20-20KHz experience. A subwoofer, specifically a powered subwoofer, is using a dedicated amp and driver for just the low end. 2 and 3 way speaker systems can not compete at being able to reproduce these low end sounds.....at least not at my budget. And as stated by Andolink, the subwoofer should not draw attention to itself. With room treatment and/or room correction software, the sub can be dialed in so as not to be even noticed....except for the excellent low end sound.

    My main speakers are Paradigm Prestige 75F's along with a Paradigm subwoofer. The system has been set up using Anthem's ARC software, and I must say it works. The bass is dialed in. What I mean is that I am hearing the recording as intended. If there is a lot of bass I can her it all. Not over done, but what was intended by the recording engineer. When listening to music, you can not tell there is a sub in the room. All sound appears to come from the 2 main speakers. When I first set it up (and it is close to one of the mains) I could not even tell it was working until I took off the speaker grill and saw the driver moving.
    Having the sub does nothing for listening to recordings which have no low frequencies. But when listening to a choral work with organ accompaniment, double basses playing loud, or a bass drum the low end is staggering. Again, not over done, but what was intended.

    For most of us who can not afford to pay huge sums of money for main speakers capable of producing accurately 20-20kHz sound and the high power required to drive them, a sub is an excellent addition to a fine set of stereo speakers. Why not hear what was originally recorded?
    I love music. I want music. I need music.

  21. Likes Andolink liked this post
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •