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Thread: Johann Jakob Froberger (1616 - 1667)

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myriadi View Post
    I haven't heard his Byrd, but seeing as this is a Froberger guestbook, I'll venture to say I never enjoyed Egarr's Froberger. I remember being grateful to him for recording a complete set, though.
    I like Egarr's cd 3 a lot. I still think he's the best complete Froberger, largely because I'm not keen on Asperen on organ.

    Quote Originally Posted by Myriadi View Post
    I might be biased since I loathe every Moroney record I've ever heard (well, almost - certainly the solo keyboard ones), but this sounds a little silly to me. That keyboard tradition arose primarily thanks to (and amidst) the much older lute tradition, and every single composer involved in the French school - be it Couperin or Froberger - couldn't help being influenced by the Parisian lute school, the same way Frescobaldi couldn't ignore Kapsberger's toccatas, and earlier Italian organists most certainly did not ignore the lutenists of their day.
    Well yes, of course. As far as I know only the French wrote unmeasured keyboard music and it's highly plausible to say that they did so partly because they were inspired by a lute practice, especially given that the keyboard composers were aware of Blancrocher, Mesangeau and Pierre Gaultier.

    Unfortunately I just can't get hold of Moroney's paper on unmeasured preludes to get clearer about what exactly he's saying. One thing I did find is that he argues that the inspiration for Louis Couperin's Prelude in imitation of Froberger was the first toccata in Frescobaldi's 1649 book. I can imagine he's right about that.
    Last edited by Mandryka; May-29-2018 at 21:48.

  2. #17
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    Can I ask a question? What exactly is a tombeau? Is it a celebration, a mourning piece, or what?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mandryka View Post
    Can I ask a question? What exactly is a tombeau? Is it a celebration, a mourning piece, or what?

    It can not be said better than in this Wiki quote:

    A tombeau (plural tombeaux) is a musical composition (earlier, in the early 16th century, a poem) commemorating the death of a notable individual. The term derives from the French word for "tomb" or "tombstone". The vast majority of tombeaux date from the 17th century and were composed for lute or other plucked string instruments. The genre gradually fell out of use during the 18th century, but reappeared in the early 20th.

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  5. #19
    Senior Member Myriadi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mandryka View Post
    I like Egarr's cd 3 a lot. I still think he's the best complete Froberger, largely because I'm not keen on Asperen on organ.
    Ah, I'm not too fond of Asperen's set myself. I wish Leonhardt recorded more Froberger, or Kenneth Gilbert - I like their interpretations best. I've only heard two organ discs of Froberger - Kelemen's and Coudurier's. I haven't listened to them in a while - I believe they both had their share of good and bad qualities.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mandryka View Post
    Well yes, of course. As far as I know only the French wrote unmeasured keyboard music and it's highly plausible to say that they did so partly because they were inspired by a lute practice, especially given that the keyboard composers were aware of Blancrocher, Mesangeau and Pierre Gaultier.
    Absolutely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mandryka View Post
    Unfortunately I just can't get hold of Moroney's paper on unmeasured preludes to get clearer about what exactly he's saying. One thing I did find is that he argues that the inspiration for Louis Couperin's Prelude in imitation of Froberger was the first toccata in Frescobaldi's 1649 book. I can imagine he's right about that.
    "Or - as the kids today would say - like, any of the pieces Froberger played for the guy in Paris when they were hanging out, dude."

    Seriously though, it'd be nice to see an exact quote for this as well

  6. #20
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    I've picked up from general reading that he argues that specifically preludes 1,3,6 and 12 are related to Italian toccatas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by premont View Post
    It can not be said better than in this Wiki quote:

    A tombeau (plural tombeaux) is a musical composition (earlier, in the early 16th century, a poem) commemorating the death of a notable individual. The term derives from the French word for "tomb" or "tombstone".
    Moroney wrote somewhere that he sees these things as musical burials. And so the famous scale at the end of Froberger's Blancrocher tombeau isn't the poor chap falling down a flight of stairs (clumsy), it's rather his soul descending into the underworld (noble.)
    Last edited by Mandryka; May-30-2018 at 07:08.

  8. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mandryka View Post
    Moroney wrote somewhere that he sees these things as musical burials.
    This may be a subtle distinction. When one attends a burial the purpose is of course to say a last goodbye to the deceased individual but also to commemorate him/her.

  9. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mandryka View Post
    largely because I'm not keen on Asperen on organ.


    .
    I regret saying that.

    Over the past couple of days I've been listening to Asperen playing the Capriccios. When you hear them all presented together like this, played on a good instrument, it does sound as major a polyphonic cycle as Frescobaldi's Capriccios. Asperen compares it to AoF in fact in that it contains exhaustive explorations of the contrapuntal possibilities of a single theme.

    Anyway I think this recording of Asperen on organ is pretty interesting

    AE10701-Froberger-Johann-Jacob-Capriccio_large.jpg

  10. #24
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    I love this composer. He should be more widely performed. I think he would be if he wasn't difficult to 'read'

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eusebius12 View Post
    I love this composer. He should be more widely performed. I think he would be if he wasn't difficult to 'read'
    Apart from the preludes, is it harder to read than any other baroque keyboard composer? Louis Couperin, Frescobaldi, Bach, Byrd all present their problems.

    But yes, the preludes present their own challenges.

    My own feeling is that, on record, he’s relatively well served, especially for the late “death music” I’m getting much more interested in his Italianate music, the capricci and ricercari.
    Last edited by Mandryka; Sep-04-2018 at 13:54.

  12. #26
    Senior Member philoctetes's Avatar
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    Froberger is on my rotation a lot this year, along with Couperin and Chambonnieres. I take 'read' to mean *interpret*, as this composer seems like a St-Colombe type, reserved and deeper than obvious on first hearing. But he's still somewhat new to me.

    Spence, Rannou, and Deverite make up my Forqueray library so far. Rannou seems to make Froberger sound the least conservative. Deverite is at the other pole. I like both approaches, perhaps Deverite's sraightness leaves the listener more to "interpret".

  13. #27
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    I think you're confusing Forqueray and Froberger. The image I attached by mistake.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Mandryka; Sep-04-2018 at 18:36.

  14. #28
    Senior Member philoctetes's Avatar
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    Gawd I did

    Thanks for gently correcting me.
    Last edited by philoctetes; Sep-04-2018 at 19:29.

  15. #29
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    For Forqueray transcriptions, I think you should try to hear this

    23653-img1430139560266318.jpg

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  17. #30
    Senior Member philoctetes's Avatar
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    I guess you could say I was f'd up...

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