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Thread: Will the "New Vinyl" records really sound like the "Old Vinyl"?

  1. #46
    Senior Member Fritz Kobus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EddieRUKiddingVarese View Post
    I think a diamond disc would be better.

    Stainless Steel, in fact corrodes and if you kept scratching the oxide of it, it would disappear very quickly............. plus I think it would give off a cold timbre
    Yeah! Johnny Winter liked his National Steel Guitar. Of the one he played on Third Degree he said "It was an old National that sounded really raw and nasty, like a garbage can with strings on it." (p265 Raisin Cain, The Wild and Raucous Story of Johnny Winter, Mary Lou Sullivan) I suspect steel records could have a similar "garbage can" effect.
    Last edited by Fritz Kobus; Jun-27-2018 at 05:43.
    "All of Italian opera can be heard in [Bellini's] "Ah! non creda [mirarti]."
    --Renata Scotto in "Scotto, More Than a DIva."

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    Senior Member wkasimer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dogen View Post
    It was weird, given all the digital stuff they sold.
    True. But if you buy a turntable, you also probably need to buy a phono amplifier. And when he talks about the "right equipment", that includes a cartridge that costs serious $$$ and has to be replaced frequently. When you buy a piece of digital equipment, that's the only sale he's going to make.

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    Senior Member bigshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dogen View Post
    A few days ago when I was in a hifi shop, I was surprised that the staff member point blank said that, given the right equipment, vinyl has a better sound quality than CD.
    Even with the right equipment it isn't better fidelity than CD because LP records themselves have a limited frequency response, higher distortion, more noise, narrower dynamics and more speed fluctuations than CDs. People look at the specs of a phono cartridge and see that it might go beyond 20kHz. But that doesn't matter because the only sound in that range in the grooves of an LP is noise.
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  6. #49
    Senior Member Simon Moon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wkasimer View Post
    Aren't the "new vinyl" records recorded digitally?

    No.

    There are an ever increasing number of analog recording studios being built.


    As far as digital formats being better than vinyl in 'all' aspects, I agree with all but one aspect. Vinyl still has the ability to create a bigger, deeper soundstage and more precise imaging, than almost all digital formats.

    This has to do with our evolved ability of our auditory systems to discern time differences as low as 7 micro seconds. Too long to go into here.

    The only digital format that comes close in this aspect, is DSD. But DSD has other drawbacks which drastically limit its usefulness.
    And if there were a god, I think it very unlikely that he would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence - Russell

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    Senior Member bigshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EddieRUKiddingVarese View Post
    I think a diamond disc would be better
    278px-Edison_Diamond_Disc_newspaper_ad.png
    Edison made those
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    Senior Member bigshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Moon View Post
    There are an ever increasing number of analog recording studios being built.
    I live in Los Angeles and work in the business. I have only heard of one studio that can still record to 24 track tape. All of the other ones keep one 24 track player in the machine room and they transfer any pre-digital master that comes in to digital and mix and deliver a final master in digital format.

    Analogue recording is dead as a doornail. Most LP records being made now derive from digital masters.

    The best soundstage and imaging is with Dolby Atmos. Sound location is a matter of channel separation and the number of channels. Digital beats LPs by a hundred miles in those areas.

    The threshold of audibility for time (group delay) is 1 to 3 ms between 500Hz to 8kHz.

    Just about all the major digital audio formats are capable of reaching audible transparency, including lossy. There is no audible difference between a master and a CD. There is an audible difference between a master and an LP though, because an LP has additional distortion and noise, particularly at the inner grooves. The difference in sound quality between the outer groove and inner groove of an LP is huge.
    Last edited by bigshot; Jun-27-2018 at 17:04.
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  12. #52
    Senior Member Fritz Kobus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigshot View Post
    Even with the right equipment it isn't better fidelity than CD because LP records themselves have a limited frequency response, higher distortion, more noise, narrower dynamics and more speed fluctuations than CDs. People look at the specs of a phono cartridge and see that it might go beyond 20kHz. But that doesn't matter because the only sound in that range in the grooves of an LP is noise.
    I love it! But it wont matter to those seriously addicted to vinyl. People will screen out truth that upsets their preferred understanding
    "All of Italian opera can be heard in [Bellini's] "Ah! non creda [mirarti]."
    --Renata Scotto in "Scotto, More Than a DIva."

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    Thanks for answering everyone. I have a stepson who is in his mid-'30's but knows more about the old music '60's, '70's than I do.

    He said that the new vinyl would be recorded the same (on thick vinyl) but there was a controversy whether the same equipment should be used to listen to them like Marantz receivers and Kush speakers. I had a Marantz receiver and a pretty good turntable but my speakers were not up to par. They didn't take advantage of what the receiver had to offer.
    I am eclectic in my taste in music. Except "Ultra-Modern", Country Music, and Blues."

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    Senior Member bigshot's Avatar
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    Speakers are always the limiting factor. Most modern amps and receivers are audibly transparent, so what you put into them is what you get out. For digital audio most players and DACs are audibly transparent too. The wild card is the speakers and the room. That is the place to focus if you want to improve your sound fidelity.
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    Senior Member Fritz Kobus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigshot View Post
    Speakers are always the limiting factor. Most modern amps and receivers are audibly transparent, so what you put into them is what you get out. For digital audio most players and DACs are audibly transparent too. The wild card is the speakers and the room. That is the place to focus if you want to improve your sound fidelity.
    Of course the amp needs enough power to drive the speakers at low distortion levels.
    "All of Italian opera can be heard in [Bellini's] "Ah! non creda [mirarti]."
    --Renata Scotto in "Scotto, More Than a DIva."

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    Senior Member JohnD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by haydnguy View Post
    Thanks for answering everyone. I have a stepson who is in his mid-'30's but knows more about the old music '60's, '70's than I do.

    He said that the new vinyl would be recorded the same (on thick vinyl) but there was a controversy whether the same equipment should be used to listen to them like Marantz receivers and Kush speakers. I had a Marantz receiver and a pretty good turntable but my speakers were not up to par. They didn't take advantage of what the receiver had to offer.
    Please allow me to nitpick: music isn't "recorded" on vinyl. It's recorded on tape or digitally and then an analog or digital master is created and that master is transferred to a vinyl or CD format.
    Last edited by JohnD; Jul-05-2018 at 04:05.

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    No one records classical music to tape anymore. The popular recording machines today are network based converter systems like Merging Horus or DAD AX32. The transfer to vinyl is a novelty stage and sometimes requires remastering to work with the format.

    I'm sure it is fun to listen to records, and what else is music other than entertainment, though for me, at least since the switch to becoming an engineer, the love of high quality sound is almost as important as the music itself.

    Bigshot already accurately explained the drawbacks of vinyl. In any measurable way, the audio fidelity is inferior. The dynamic range is around 30-40dB compared to 96dB for CD. The frequency response it ragged, depends on reconstruction filters, and tops out at about 15kHz. And the music needs to be mixed mono in the bass frequencies so the needle doesn't jump out of the groove. Digital is a pure, unobstructed SIN wave calculation whose only limitations are the analog circuitry it has to pass through to reach your ears. Without the burden of a physical storage format, there is no added noise or point of failure.

    I suppose though, that the extra distortion and compressed sound is very pleasant in a way. We still use tube microphones for their wonderful, resonant qualities, which is a direct result of harmonic distortion. Analog tape also adds a nice warmth that cannot be denied. But who the heck wants to lug a 600 lb tape recorder 1000 miles to record an orchestra in their hall? I can barely handle the equipment I have.

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    Senior Member JohnD's Avatar
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    Furthermore, cutting lathes for vinyl albums used to be tube-driven. That added a bit more of that pleasant harmonic distortion AKA "warmth". From the late 1960s on, transistor-driven cutting lathes took over. That's another reason why newly pressed vinyl is going to sound different from older vinyl.

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    Senior Member Simon Moon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigshot View Post
    I live in Los Angeles and work in the business. I have only heard of one studio that can still record to 24 track tape. All of the other ones keep one 24 track player in the machine room and they transfer any pre-digital master that comes in to digital and mix and deliver a final master in digital format.

    Analogue recording is dead as a doornail. Most LP records being made now derive from digital masters.
    Lair, York, 64 Sound, Old Boots, Stagg Street, have analog capabilities.


    The threshold of audibility for time (group delay) is 1 to 3 ms between 500Hz to 8kHz.

    http://www.yamahaproaudio.com/global...udio_universe/


    " The outcome of the experiment indicated that the threshold of the perception of timing difference between the two signals was 6 microseconds. A later experiment in 2008 confirmed this value to be even a little lower. In this white paper we propose 6 microseconds to be the timing limitation of the human auditory system. "

    https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0601124055.htm

    "The ear that is closer to the source receives the signal before the contralateral ear. But since this interval -- referred to as the interaural timing difference (ITD) -- is on the order of a few microseconds, its neuronal processing requires exceptional temporal precision."


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_localization

    "Localization accuracy is 1 degree for sources in front of the listener and 15 degrees for sources to the sides. Humans can discern interaural time differences of 10 microseconds or less"
    Last edited by Simon Moon; Jul-10-2018 at 17:00.
    And if there were a god, I think it very unlikely that he would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence - Russell

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    Senior Member bigshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Moon View Post
    Lair, York, 64 Sound, Old Boots, Stagg Street, have analog capabilities.
    They actually have the ability to record to 24 track tape? I know houses have a single 24 track in the machine room to transfer masters to digital for mixing digitally, but I only know one place in Santa Monica that actually has a whole studio built around 24 track recording. No project I've ever heard of has worked on 24 track for a couple of decades.

    My spec on group delay was for music, not for test tones. I should have specified that. When it comes to sound localization, that is more a matter for room acoustics than recording.
    Last edited by bigshot; Jul-10-2018 at 17:51.
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