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Thread: Jean-Philippe Rameau

  1. #16
    Senior Member PetrB's Avatar
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    At least as great a composer as Bach -- at the least!

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  3. #17
    Senior Member Novelette's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PetrB View Post
    At least as great a composer as Bach -- at the least!
    Very, very, very much agreed!

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  5. #18
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    Love his music. Excellent composer.

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    I love the various orchestral suites culled from Rameau's operas such as the suite from Dardanus.
    Last edited by hpowders; Sep-14-2014 at 13:30.

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  9. #20
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    Sad day. Christopher Hogwood died. One of the HIP pioneers.
    Facts don't care about your feelings.

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  11. #21
    Senior Member science's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hpowders View Post
    Sad day. Christopher Hogwood died. One of the HIP pioneers.
    Did Hogwood make any particular recording of Rameau that you have in mind?
    Liberty for wolves is death to the lambs.

  12. #22
    Junior Member PabloElFlamenco's Avatar
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    Jean-Philippe Rameau is one of my favorites. Don't ask me the "why" or the "what", it's just that, at one point, his music caught and kept my attention. As I'm interested in history, I researched a bit, and as I'm reading (Max Gallo) the French revolution (whereof I chose to omit the capital "R"), it somewhat catches my fancy that this music was as far removed from 1789 as the early Beatles to this day and time, not that I suppose "the French people" were "fans" of Rameau (even if his funeral ceremoney was rumored to be highly attended). In fact, Rameau's music serves the function of better understanding that, in appearance distant, world of the "ancien régime".
    "Zaïs" is perhaps my favorite, which isn't saying much, because it's what I know best. The overture is truly phenomenal, it can't be beat for sheer grandiose musicality. This "opera-ballet" has some passages the sheer beauty of which leave one spellbound if not in tears (allez...!) Thanks to Mr. Marc Minkowski's recording "Une Symphonie Imaginaire", I have the opportunity of greatly enjoying some passages of "Les Boreades", "Castor et Pollux", "Les Indes Galantes", whereas Scott Ross performs so grandly the Rameau harpsichord oeuvre.
    ...all "Temples de la Gloire" of baroque music in France.
    Paul
    Last edited by PabloElFlamenco; Dec-30-2014 at 18:20.

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  14. #23
    Senior Member Gaspard de la Nuit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PetrB View Post
    At least as great a composer as Bach -- at the least!
    I agree. Bach has some quality besides overall quality that makes him agreeable to the people who, over time, decided what belongs in the canon and the repertory.....a few of his contemporaries are or are almost on equal footing, at least in certain genres, although in rameau's case it seems true on the whole. His music is consistently no less beautiful, in fact (like some of couperin's) it might be more beautiful.

    I've been listening to his keyboard works and it's just such a breath of fresh air after hearing 85% Bach as baroque keyboard music representation.
    "Only in being hidden does the Divine reveal itself."

  15. #24
    Senior Member tdc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaspard de la Nuit View Post
    I agree. Bach has some quality besides overall quality that makes him agreeable to the people who, over time, decided what belongs in the canon and the repertory.....a few of his contemporaries are or are almost on equal footing, at least in certain genres, although in rameau's case it seems true on the whole. His music is consistently no less beautiful, in fact (like some of couperin's) it might be more beautiful.

    I've been listening to his keyboard works and it's just such a breath of fresh air after hearing 85% Bach as baroque keyboard music representation.
    There is no conspiracy. Bach is more revered because he was the better composer.

    Still love Rameau though.

  16. #25
    Senior Member Gaspard de la Nuit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tdc View Post
    There is no conspiracy. Bach is more revered because he was the better composer.

    Still love Rameau though.
    Whatever you happen to think of Bach vs. rameau, it literally is a conspiracy, in that specific groups of people in the WCM universe with the means to, decide whose music is promulgated and whose isn't, and make far-reaching aesthetic value decisions that rely largely on the esteem of the individuals and the consensus of very similar individuals to present themselves as an objective fact on cultural achievement, as opposed to just someone's opinion, which is what it really is.
    Last edited by Gaspard de la Nuit; Jun-05-2015 at 16:29.
    "Only in being hidden does the Divine reveal itself."

  17. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaspard de la Nuit View Post
    Whatever you happen to think of Bach vs. rameau, it literally is a conspiracy, in that specific groups of people in the WCM universe with the means to, decide whose music is promulgated and whose isn't, and make far-reaching aesthetic value decisions that rely largely on the esteem of the individuals and the consensus of very similar individuals to present themselves as an objective fact on cultural achievement, as opposed to just someone's opinion, which is what it really is.
    A group of people agreeing with each other doesn't constitute a conspiracy. A conspiracy would mean that they are intentionally doing something (promulgating certain composers' works over others, in this instance) in coordination with each other. Given the recent revival in the fortunes of Rameau and other composers of the Baroque, late and early, I would say that it would require strong evidence to assert that they're being actively suppressed in favor of Bach.

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  19. #27
    Senior Member Gaspard de la Nuit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mahlerian View Post
    A group of people agreeing with each other doesn't constitute a conspiracy. A conspiracy would mean that they are intentionally doing something (promulgating certain composers' works over others, in this instance) in coordination with each other. Given the recent revival in the fortunes of Rameau and other composers of the Baroque, late and early, I would say that it would require strong evidence to assert that they're being actively suppressed in favor of Bach.
    A group of people agreeing is the first requirement in a conspiracy, and in this case it is typically music scholars, professors, and others who impact what is taught and performed, deciding what their students will learn and what they want to be passed on to future generations. It's not that music is being suppressed as much as that greatness is being measured by standards that give a certain approach to musical composition a considerable advantage.

    In my experience, there is a sizable minority of musicians who have opinions to the effect that they don't like Beethoven or they think some of Bach's music is unlistenable. There is a general consensus as to the greatness of the usual pantheon of composers but it is nowhere near as universal as we are supposed to believe.
    "Only in being hidden does the Divine reveal itself."

  20. #28
    Senior Member Bulldog's Avatar
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    Rameau is one of my favorite baroque composers, but he clearly is a few steps below Bach. There's no conspiracy here, just a matter of quality. Rameau does the have the edge with opera, but that's only because Bach didn't write any.

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  22. #29
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    Wonderful music, but I do wish there were more opportunities to see his operas in the UK. One of the problems with Rameau, unfortunately is that he has been the victim of fraudulent re-orchestrations that until recently were still being used for performances (even by some period bands 20 years ago). I used to love my old recording of Dardanus, it was a showcase for Rameau's innovative orchestrations. But then I learnt that this was all a lie and in fact the official edition from 100 years ago includes a lot of creative license that was not documented at the time. More recent recordings are still lovely, but are much more stripped down in a manner that is much more familiar with Baroque music. It does mean that you have to spend time finding a good edition in order to perform this stuff. Maybe that has stifled some orchestras from wanting to tackle it in the UK.

    Anyway, I've been recently listening to his keyboard works. As someone else earlier said, it's such a breathe of fresh air from the German composers.

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  24. #30
    Senior Member norman bates's Avatar
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    I've read that Bach had a terrible opinion about Rameau, at least as a theorist. What's the reason for that?

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