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Was it anti-Semitic or was it just a criticism of the Israeli government?

9K views 28 replies 10 participants last post by  Zhdanov 
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#1 ·
That is the question I am wondering about the decision to not perform Wieland Hoban's final instalment in his 'Rules of Engagement' trilogy of compositions at the Donaueschinger Musiktage.

Article here: https://van-us.atavist.com/rules-of-engagement

What are your thoughts?
 
#3 ·
I don't think it was anti-semitic but it certainly wasn't an overly thoughtful or helpful criticism. This still doesn't warrant the censorship though; it seems people will mount a protest to put an end to anything they deem remotely offensive these days and I wish more people in charge would take the heat and let the event continue. This is, however, a very easy thing to say when you're not in charge.
 
#4 · (Edited)
If peoples criticism of the more barbarian nations of the Middle East outweighs its criticism of its only liberal democracy, then criticism of that liberal democracy isn't anti-Semitism, despite the fact that it's the worlds only Jewish state.

But if the Jewish state is singled out for criticism, despite being surrounded by murderous theocracies who routinely deny rights to minorities, deny its right to exist and threaten it daily,. then I'm afraid they can only be singled out because they're Jewish.

Or else because the critics hate the freedoms the regions only liberal democracy defends.

I tend to think it's because they're Jewish, however. And when I read mention of the BDS, then there's no other way to see it other than as anti-Semitism...
 
#7 · (Edited)
If peoples criticism of the more barbarian nations of the Middle East outweighs its criticism of its only liberal democracy, then criticism of that liberal democracy isn't anti-Semitism, despite the fact that it's the worlds only Jewish state.

But if the Jewish state is singled out for criticism, despite being surrounded by murderous theocracies who routinely deny rights to minorities, deny its right to exist and threaten it daily,. then I'm afraid they can only be singled out because they're Jewish.

Or else because the critics hate the freedoms the regions only liberal democracy defends.

I tend to think it's because they're Jewish, however. And when I read mention of the BDS, then there's no other way to see it other than as anti-Semitism...
Because Israel isn't anything like a theocracy or murderous at all, right? Plus you forgot places like Lebanon and Syria (before the recent events) which are very civilised, peaceful nations. Israel is not a 'liberal democracy'; certainly no-more than other moderate states in the Middle-East. Bit of bias going on there Kieran old boy!
 
#5 · (Edited)
The idea that criticizing the war crimes of an ethno-nationalist apartheid state that certainly does not represent all Jews (such as myself) is anti-Semitic is.... Israeli propaganda. The attempts to suppress justified criticism of said war crimes are setting an incredibly dangerous precedent in our supposed democracies and promote the idea that believing Palestinians should have human and democratic rights is somehow a bigoted position.
 
#14 · (Edited)
This talking point ignores over half a century of Zionists driving Palestinians off their land and conspiring with the British to disenfranchise them in every way possible. Why should an indigenous population agree to state just for the settler colonialists where the Palestinians had lived?

What's wrong with the bloke in the video? He's citing Israeli officials. I've read these accounts in Hebrew.
 
#15 ·
This talking point ignores over half a century of Zionists driving Palestinians off their land and conspiring with the British to disenfranchise them in every way possible. Why should there be a state just for the Jews where other people have lived?
There was a small state offered to Jews, and a large state offered to Palestinians. The Palestinians rejected this - and have always rejected it since - because they won't live beside a Jewish state, no matter how small. So long as the nations of that region refuse to accept the Israeli state, there will be trouble.

And I go back to my original point: criticism of Israel is valid - but when you single them out for criticism alone among all the nations of that region, then we're entitled to draw a simple conclusion...
 
#19 ·
They do actually. My Syrian neighbour was on Whatsapp to his parents last week and they were having a birthday party with the neighbours.

I've been to both Lebanon and Syria (my mother lived in Lebanon before she died) and I can tell you from first-hand experience that you are in error.
 
#21 ·
"Singled out" - if only. It enjoys the increasingly uncritical - see the breaking news re Trump admin's cutting funds to UNRWA - support of the world's only superpower, which is all that matters at the end of the day. The EU countries are, too, complicit in the caging of Palestinians in Gaza and the apartheid regime instilled in the WB. Whatever toothless resolutions are passed in the UN are blocked by the US.

The "conflict" (funny calling it this seeing how power is distributed between the two sides) does attract a great deal of attention and scrutiny - it is the symbolic epicenter of the resistance of non-white people against colonial oppression. It's not the biggest conflict in the region, but it's one hell of a bone in its proverbial throat. It's at the bottom of a lot of the alienation and militarism that issue from that region. And it's turning Israel into a nation in the image of a fascist like Naftali Bennett, never mind a prime minister who talks like this:

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Ultimately, the reason why I believe a boycott on Israel is important is for its own good. You cannot keep practicing apartheid in 2018.

And it's a bit galling to hear from a Jew complaining of "cleansing" when you know you'd need the Hubble telescope wearing binoculars to find a Jew who's living safely in the ME, anywhere other than Israel.
The Arab states made a tragic mistake of historic proportions when they failed to make the distinction between "Jews" and "Zionists," driving their Jewish communities out - one of the many tragedies sparked by Zionism.
 
#22 ·
"Singled out" - if only. It enjoys the increasingly uncritical - see the breaking news re Trump admin's cutting funds to UNRWA - support of the world's only superpower, which is all that matters at the end of the day. The EU countries are, too, complicit in the caging of Palestinians in Gaza and the apartheid regime instilled in the WB. Whatever toothless resolutions are passed in the UN are blocked by the US.

The "conflict" (funny calling it this seeing how power is distributed between the two sides) does attract a great deal of attention and scrutiny - it is the symbolic epicenter of the resistance of non-white people against colonial oppression. It's not the biggest conflict in the region, but it's one hell of a bone in its proverbial throat. It's at the bottom of a lot of the alienation and militarism that issue from that region. And it's turning Israel into a nation in the image of a fascist like Naftali Bennett, never mind a prime minister who talks like this:

View attachment 107332

Ultimately, the reason why I believe a boycott on Israel is important is for its own good. You cannot keep practicing apartheid in 2018.

The Arab states made a tragic mistake of historic proportions when they failed to make the distinction between "Jews" and "Zionists," driving their Jewish communities out - one of the many tragedies sparked by Zionism.
Jeez, listen to yourself! When Jews are being "driven out" of the rest of the ME, it's still their fault. Hold the Arabs responsible - please - for what they do.

As for the rest of it, you're speaking in faddish terms - "it is the symbolic epicenter of the resistance of non-white people against colonial oppression."

Nonsense. Given their way, Israels Muslim neighbours would turn every Jew to dust. If they had Israels weaponry - and Israel had theirs - it would be over in the time it takes to click my fingers.

"
It's not the biggest conflict in the region, but it's one hell of a bone in its proverbial throat"

Right. So please exercise more time organising boycotts of the real trouble makers in the region, though I somehow doubt you ever will...
 
#23 · (Edited)
Only the likes of Syria are international pariahs - Assad doesn't get 3.8 billion a year in military handouts from the world's only remaining superpower, of which I'm a citizen.

Jews and Muslims lived in peace in the Middle East - before Zionism. If resistance to colonialism is a "faddish" term to you, so be it. But that's what effed up this region so bad, from the tragically moronic way states such as Syria were pieced together and all the way to America's recent misadventures. My involvement with Israel stems from an honest desire to see it become a better place.
 
#24 · (Edited)
Interesting people are always harping on about the Israeli's lack of concern for human lives. When I was last in Israel some group was firing missiles from Lebanon indiscriminately across the border. One landed near us the peaceful Kibbutz we were staying in. I don't think the people who fired them exactly cared about human lives. We all know Israelis are not perfect but look what is surrounding them!
 
#28 ·
Israel is not perfect, no country is. Netanyahu, the elected Prime Minister, is currently trying to avoid a criminal trial for corruption. Currently he is standing trial and may well be convicted. A previous Prime Minister, Ehud Olmert, served time in jail after a similar conviction. In the Knesset, Israeli Parliament, there are 120 M.Ks. Well over 15% are members of the Joint (Arab ) list. They take a full part in debates and it is their decision not to participate in government. Hopefully this might change one day.
Israel is not a theocracy although I accept that the ultra religious have disproportionate influence inconsistent with their numbers. This is partly due to the system of proportionate representation currently in force which encourages this. Despite this Israel has a liberal outlook except in Charedi (ultra religious ) neighbourhoods and Tel Aviv is one of the most liberated cities in the world with a thriving nightlife and a world renowned gay pride.
I started by saying that Israel is not perfect. However I would far rather be an Arab in Israel than a Jew in Saudi although I believe Jews are officially banned there though hopefully that will change someday. And it is unfortunate that many criticise Israel whilst turning a blind eye to the Iniquities of their neighbours.
 
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