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Thread: Was it anti-Semitic or was it just a criticism of the Israeli government?

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    shirime
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    Default Was it anti-Semitic or was it just a criticism of the Israeli government?

    That is the question I am wondering about the decision to not perform Wieland Hoban's final instalment in his 'Rules of Engagement' trilogy of compositions at the Donaueschinger Musiktage.

    Article here: https://van-us.atavist.com/rules-of-engagement


    What are your thoughts?

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    Depends on where and what context you are playing it

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    I don't think it was anti-semitic but it certainly wasn't an overly thoughtful or helpful criticism. This still doesn't warrant the censorship though; it seems people will mount a protest to put an end to anything they deem remotely offensive these days and I wish more people in charge would take the heat and let the event continue. This is, however, a very easy thing to say when you're not in charge.

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    If peoples criticism of the more barbarian nations of the Middle East outweighs its criticism of its only liberal democracy, then criticism of that liberal democracy isn't anti-Semitism, despite the fact that it's the worlds only Jewish state.

    But if the Jewish state is singled out for criticism, despite being surrounded by murderous theocracies who routinely deny rights to minorities, deny its right to exist and threaten it daily,. then I'm afraid they can only be singled out because they're Jewish.

    Or else because the critics hate the freedoms the regions only liberal democracy defends.

    I tend to think it's because they're Jewish, however. And when I read mention of the BDS, then there's no other way to see it other than as anti-Semitism...
    Last edited by Kieran; Aug-31-2018 at 20:46.
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    The idea that criticizing the war crimes of an ethno-nationalist apartheid state that certainly does not represent all Jews (such as myself) is anti-Semitic is.... Israeli propaganda. The attempts to suppress justified criticism of said war crimes are setting an incredibly dangerous precedent in our supposed democracies and promote the idea that believing Palestinians should have human and democratic rights is somehow a bigoted position.
    Last edited by BiscuityBoyle; Aug-31-2018 at 20:49.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BiscuityBoyle View Post
    The idea that criticizing the war crimes of an ethno-nationalist apartheid state that certainly does not represent all Jews (such as myself) is anti-Semitic is.... Israeli propaganda. The attempts to suppress justified criticism of said war crimes are setting an incredibly dangerous precedent in our supposed democracies and promote the idea that believing Palestinians should have human and democratic rights is somehow a bigoted position.
    Palestinians exercised their democratic rights when they elected a terrorist organisation to rule them - one whose stated goal is the destruction of Israel and Jews everywhere.

    Since then, Hamas have not allowed any democratic elections to take place...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kieran View Post
    If peoples criticism of the more barbarian nations of the Middle East outweighs its criticism of its only liberal democracy, then criticism of that liberal democracy isn't anti-Semitism, despite the fact that it's the worlds only Jewish state.

    But if the Jewish state is singled out for criticism, despite being surrounded by murderous theocracies who routinely deny rights to minorities, deny its right to exist and threaten it daily,. then I'm afraid they can only be singled out because they're Jewish.

    Or else because the critics hate the freedoms the regions only liberal democracy defends.

    I tend to think it's because they're Jewish, however. And when I read mention of the BDS, then there's no other way to see it other than as anti-Semitism...
    Because Israel isn't anything like a theocracy or murderous at all, right? Plus you forgot places like Lebanon and Syria (before the recent events) which are very civilised, peaceful nations. Israel is not a 'liberal democracy'; certainly no-more than other moderate states in the Middle-East. Bit of bias going on there Kieran old boy!
    Last edited by eugeneonagain; Aug-31-2018 at 21:02.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kieran View Post
    Palestinians exercised their democratic rights when they elected a terrorist organisation to rule them - one whose stated goal is the destruction of Israel and Jews everywhere.

    Since then, Hamas have not allowed any democratic elections to take place...
    Hamas was propped up by the Shin Bet in the 1980s because Israel wanted a Palestinian movement that was easier to dismiss than the largely secular PLO - this is documented. I'm no fan of Hamas but I can understand why someone would support it living in the "world's largest open-air prison," as that notorious left-wing firebrand David Cameron defined Gaza (he and everyone else). Not to mention that the West Bank is ruled not by Hamas but by Fatah, which is essentially Israel's subcontractor, whose security forces are trained by the Israelis.



    I wish the problem started there, or in 1967 or even in 1948. The problem with Zionism is that, as a product of its time, it was modeled on the ethnic nationalism of eastern Europe, rather than the more civic-oriented and inclusive western European model. Deciding one day that you have the exclusive right for a land your ancestors lived on two millennia ago and that the people who lived there for centuries - in peace with a Jewish minority in Palestine! - had to be cleansed... that's just not right.
    Last edited by BiscuityBoyle; Aug-31-2018 at 21:06.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eugeneonagain View Post
    Because Israel isn't anything like a theocracy or murderous at all, right? Plus you forgot places like Lebanon and Syria (before the recent events) which are very civilised, peaceful nations. Israel is not a 'liberal democracy'; certainly no-more than other moderate states in the Middle-East. Bit of bias going on there Kieran old boy!
    No bias. Let's tick off the liberal wish-list, and see where it resides: how are gays treated in the rest of the ME?

    How are they treated in Israel?

    How are women treated in the rest of the ME?

    How are they treated in Israel?

    How are religious minorities treated in the rest of the ME?

    How are they treated in Israel?

    The fact is, if criticism of the region is fair and includes loudest denunciations for the regimes which routinely and blithely disregard the human rights of Jews, Christians, gays, women, then any criticism of Israel should be welcomed and is justified.

    But if Israel alone is singled out? Then I'm sorry, there's only one reason for that...
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    Quote Originally Posted by eugeneonagain View Post
    Because Israel isn't anything like a theocracy or murderous at all, right? Plus you forgot places like Lebanon and Syria (before the recent events) which are very civilised, peaceful nations. Israel is not a 'liberal democracy'; certainly no-more than other moderate states in the Middle-East. Bit of bias going on there Kieran old boy!
    Israel is defined as a "Jewish democracy" in its declaration of independence. Once you start slapping qualifiers onto "democracy" it's something else - an "ethnocracy" or, to be charitable, a preferential democracy. But that's within the so-called 1967 borders. In the "occupied" (occupation is defined as a temporary military situation - Israel's turned 50 last year) West Bank it's a literal apartheid state where a system of military checkpoints, Israeli-only highways and the "demographic wall" cement the two components of apartheid - separation (between the Palestinians and over 800,000 Jewish settlers) and domination.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BiscuityBoyle View Post
    Deciding one day that you have the exclusive right for a land your ancestors lived on two millennia ago and that the people who lived there for centuries - in peace with a Jewish minority in Palestine! - had to be cleansed... that's just not right.
    That's a bizarre reading of history, but not surprising, given the bloke in the video. Palestine was offered a two-state solution
    twice before the foundation of Israel, and both times rejected it because they didn't want even the small Jewish state that was proposed to exist. They've continually denied the right of Jews to have their own state. This is the continual source of trouble in the region. If Hamas could, they'd obliterate the Jewish state, and there'd be few tears shed in the rest of the region.

    Israel deserves criticism too - but so long as the other nations in the region continually get a free pass, we have to wonder why the only Jewish state in the region gets singled out...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kieran View Post
    That's a bizarre reading of history,
    Please explain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BiscuityBoyle View Post
    Please explain.
    I did explain, in the post above yours...
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    This talking point ignores over half a century of Zionists driving Palestinians off their land and conspiring with the British to disenfranchise them in every way possible. Why should an indigenous population agree to state just for the settler colonialists where the Palestinians had lived?

    What's wrong with the bloke in the video? He's citing Israeli officials. I've read these accounts in Hebrew.
    Last edited by BiscuityBoyle; Aug-31-2018 at 21:35.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BiscuityBoyle View Post
    This talking point ignores over half a century of Zionists driving Palestinians off their land and conspiring with the British to disenfranchise them in every way possible. Why should there be a state just for the Jews where other people have lived?
    There was a small state offered to Jews, and a large state offered to Palestinians. The Palestinians rejected this - and have always rejected it since - because they won't live beside a Jewish state, no matter how small. So long as the nations of that region refuse to accept the Israeli state, there will be trouble.

    And I go back to my original point: criticism of Israel is valid - but when you single them out for criticism alone among all the nations of that region, then we're entitled to draw a simple conclusion...
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