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Thread: John McCain Passes Away

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveM View Post
    McCain himself admitted that he made many mistakes.
    Tellingly, all he admitted re Iraq is that it was a strategic mistake, not a moral one. As recently as six months ago, McCain voted against a bipartisan effort ago to end the Saudi slaughter of Yemen that's killed upward of 15 thousand people and created a million cases of cholera. He had routinely backed the war and the selling of arms to the Saudis. If the idea is that you're supposed to learn from your mistakes, then...


    His work on campaign finance reform is indicative of the nature of his achievements - he made it a signature issue to restore his reputation after the Keating Five scandal; and his crowning accomplishment in the field, the McCain–Feingold Act, was merely successful in redirecting large contributions to outside groups, making money in politics shadier and less accountable than ever before, and politicians being beholden to corporate donors more than ever.
    Last edited by BiscuityBoyle; Aug-30-2018 at 01:21.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by BiscuityBoyle View Post
    Tellingly, all his admitted re Iraq is that it was a strategic mistake, not a moral one. As recently as six months ago, McCain voted against a bipartisan effort ago to end the Saudi slaughter of Yemen that's killed upward of 15 thousand people and created a million cases of cholera. He had routinely backed the war and the selling of arms to the Saudis. If the idea is that you're supposed to learn from your mistakes, then...


    His work on campaign finance reform is indicative of the nature of his achievements - he made it a signature issue to restore his reputation after the Keating Five scandal; and his crowning accomplishment in the field, the McCain–Feingold Act, was merely successful in redirecting large contributions to outside groups, making money in politics shadier and less accountable than ever before, and politicians being beholden to corporate donors more than ever.
    I don’t know why you’re bringing all this up here which was obviously meant to acknowledge the passing of the man. Take it to groups if you want. Politics is not allowed here anyway. Acknowledging the man and simply saying a goodbye to someone who meant something to a lot of us is not politics so I’m not responding any further to you.
    Last edited by DaveM; Aug-29-2018 at 22:47.

  3. #18
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    In my view, we cannot, or rather shouldn't, discuss a prominent politician in non-political terms. This is what you sign up for the moment you run for your first local campaign, never mind make and promote choices that impact the lives of millions — often, to quote John Cena, "to a permanent end." This is my way of acknowledging John McCain, seeing as the lives of people in the Middle East mean something to me.

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    Senior Member Fritz Kobus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveM View Post
    I don’t know why you’re bringing all this up here which was obviously meant to acknowledge the passing of the man. Take it to groups if you want. Politics is not allowed here anyway. Acknowledging the man and simply saying a goodbye to someone who meant something to a lot of us is not politics so I’m not responding any further to you.
    I think the problem here is that you invited politics by saying,
    Quote Originally Posted by DaveM View Post
    No matter what one’s politics, he was ...
    This is an assumption that does not hold true for all people, and therefore it will be challenged.
    "All of Italian opera can be heard in [Bellini's] "Ah! non creda [mirarti]."
    --Renata Scotto in "Scotto, More Than a DIva."

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    McCain was first and foremost, and exclusively so to many, a markedly political figure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fritz Kobus View Post
    I think the problem here is that you invited politics by saying,

    This is an assumption that does not hold true for all people, and therefore it will be challenged.
    I didn’t think I had to spell out the reasons he was a hero. He was shot down in Vietnam Nam, imprisoned for several years in a POW camp and during that time beaten frequently. Yet, when given the chance to go home, he refused until the men who were imprisoned before him were released. None of that has anything to do with politics.

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    Refusing to go home before the others was heroic in relation to his comrades, and perhaps-perhaps also a result of national pride.
    All the circumstances were politically and morally loaded, and a result of political and moral decisions. Such as (and I´m just mentioning them briefly here) the bombings themselves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by joen_cph View Post
    Refusing to go home before the others was heroic in relation to his comrades, and perhaps-perhaps also a result of national pride.
    All the circumstances were politically and morally loaded, and a result of political and moral decisions. Such as (and I´m just mentioning them briefly here) the bombings themselves.
    So McCain, as a shot down navy pilot, was responsible for the political and morally loaded circumstances surrounding his capture and imprisonment? He had absolutely nothing to do with the politics of the time. If you have followed his life at all, you would find that when he was imprisoned, national pride was not on his mind, but the honor code among his fellow prisoners was.
    Last edited by DaveM; Aug-30-2018 at 16:43.

  12. #24
    Senior Member Fritz Kobus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveM View Post
    I didn’t think I had to spell out the reasons he was a hero. He was shot down in Vietnam Nam, imprisoned for several years in a POW camp and during that time beaten frequently. Yet, when given the chance to go home, he refused until the men who were imprisoned before him were released. None of that has anything to do with politics.
    This is absolutely commendable. A shame his hero status is tarnished by political shenanigans.
    "All of Italian opera can be heard in [Bellini's] "Ah! non creda [mirarti]."
    --Renata Scotto in "Scotto, More Than a DIva."

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    I hope Renee Fleming is practicing. I don't want her to screw it up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveM View Post
    So McCain, as a shot down navy pilot, was responsible for the political and morally loaded circumstances surrounding his capture and imprisonment? He had absolutely nothing to do with the politics of the time. If you have followed his life at all, you would find that when he was imprisoned, national pride was not on his mind, but the honor code among his fellow prisoners was.
    Our definitions of politics differ, but for one thing, he volunteered as a patriot for combat, and commentators seem to agree that his bombing targets were in the main civilian. I´m not aware that he has expressed regret or been very open about the civilian casualties. If he has, I respect that.

    What I do respect him for is his self-criticism as regards Iraq, and especially the famous live tv-clip where he expresses respect for his political opponent, Obama, in contrast to the style of #45. This clip will remain iconic for a long time, I think.
    Last edited by joen_cph; Aug-30-2018 at 17:09.

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  18. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by joen_cph View Post
    Our definitions of politics differ, but for one thing, he volunteered as a patriot for combat, and commentators seem to agree that his bombing targets were in the main civilian.
    I don’t think any definition of politics includes individual servicemen. That infers that all servicemen who signup are now political animals. Politics certainly has to do with these wars, but laying that on an individual serviceman is unfair and rather bizarre. Also interesting is the premise that navy pilots decide whether they fly or not depending on the targets. And, ‘commentators seem to agree’ is rather vague; one of those throwaway lines when one isn’t sure.
    Last edited by DaveM; Aug-30-2018 at 17:54.

  19. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by BiscuityBoyle View Post
    When one's political stances are responsible for the deaths of, say, hundreds of thousands Iraqis, I believe that being indecorous and speaking the truth is the moral imperative.
    I prefer to do so when the person in question is in a position to defend himself. Senator McCain, alas, is not.

  20. #29
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    I regard him as a most despicable individual, and so far from a hero as one can come. Enough about that.
    But I do like the presedence of the making of this thread. That means that when some anti-imperialist leader dies, I can make a similar memorial thread about him/her and then whine if anybody will take umbrage with it.
    Don't shout for help at night. You may wake your neighbors.

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  22. #30
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    This thread was intended to give the news and express condolences.

    It has become purely political. The place for politics is in the social groups.

    This thread is now closed.
    Music begins where words leave off. Music expresses the inexpressible.

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