Likes Likes:  0
Results 1 to 10 of 10

Thread: Is this likely why I haven?

  1. #1
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Posts
    35
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Is this likely why I haven't gotten past the exposition?

    So the progress I have on the fugue exposition is slow. But I have been told by a musician that composing a fugue is like learning a language, despite how simple it seems on the outside, it is hard and that my instinct to finish my C minor fugue and write another fugue is correct if I want to get good at writing fugues.

    I have also been told that I am limiting myself by only thinking in terms of what Bach would do and only studying Bach's fugues. But am I really limiting myself if Bach composed such a diverse array of fugues with the stricter rules of Baroque counterpoint?

    Also I have seen multiple fugues where Bach uses parallel octaves which according to the rules of counterpoint aren't allowed.

    But is this free counterpoint and me thinking:

    So many possible notes, thousands of possible fugues at least with the same subject and countersubject. It is like there is this fog that is in front of me at all times. I can't see 1 clear path to go, how am I even going to decide when to invert the subject or present it retrograde or if I want to add another countersubject? How am I going to even get past those first 16 measures? I mean I could leap from 1 octave to another for any voice, I could invert the countersubject, I just know that I don't want my first fugue to end up being a double fugue because that's going to be almost impossible if I can't even decide which notes to use in the development of a single fugue(so like 1 subject and countersubjects and that's it). How am I going to decide if I want a canonic moment or what fragments of the subject to use in the development? Do I want a recapitulation to make it closer to sonata form than it already is?
    why I haven't gotten past those 16 measures of the exposition?

    I mean how am I going to decide on the notes to use or when to present the subject again?
    Last edited by caters; Aug-31-2018 at 05:11. Reason: Accidentally posted it incomplete

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Posts
    297
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    You are definitely limiting yourself both long term and short term. Write the fugue how YOU want to, don't make it some knock off imitation.

  3. #3
    Senior Member Larkenfield's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Location
    Sedona
    Posts
    1,630
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    4

    Default

    My suggestion is to study and analyze as many fugues as you can get your hands on. Bach is so often mentioned, and rightly so, because he was a master at it. Two-part fugues are generally easier to write than four-part fugues, though no fugue should be taken for granted as easy to write, and there are ways to work with secondary or counter-themes... Here's a very clear and entertaining example of a two-part fugue and what can be done with a knowledge of the principles of writing a fugue and a little fun imagination. Fugues are a way of highly organizing sound and they don’t necessarily have to be serious, but they do have to be correctly written or most listeners will know.

    Last edited by Larkenfield; Aug-31-2018 at 16:41.
    Don’t think. Thinking is the enemy of creativity. It’s self-conscious, and anything self-conscious is lousy. You can’t try to do things. You simply must do things. —Ray Bradbury

  4. #4
    Senior Member Torkelburger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    463
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Also I have seen multiple fugues where Bach uses parallel octaves which according to the rules of counterpoint aren't allowed.
    I don't believe you. Please post evidence of just one example.

  5. #5
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    106
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by caters
    "Also I have seen multiple fugues where Bach uses parallel octaves which according to the rules of counterpoint aren't allowed.
    The 'parallel octaves' you are seeing may be voice doublings? Doublings of a single independent line do not always count as clashes (?).

    There's an example in my harmony book of a Chopin Waltz which seems to have parallel 5ths in the inner voices. The author (Robert Gauldin) notes that the conforming notes of the soprano have been copied and pasted down.
    Last edited by paulc; Aug-31-2018 at 16:30.
    "The worst music I actually heard on this board (with some exceptions) by people who are telling that 'theory is everything'.

    Sorry to say ... but some of you here don't have a f***ing clue what music actually is and to be aware that some of you actually have musical knowledge, all this is even more sad."

  6. #6
    Senior Member JeffD's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    Upstate New York
    Posts
    593
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by caters View Post
    I mean how am I going to decide on the notes to use or when to present the subject again?
    I think you might benefit from a more playful approach. Like a new toy. Try this, try that, see and feel the limits, the wrong directions, the right directions, the trivial or boring directions, the interesting though incorrect directions, all that. Playful, fun, innocently exploratory. Ignorant (for the moment) of the need to "do it right" or sound great or be intelligent or get a good reaction.

    Last edited by JeffD; Aug-31-2018 at 16:11.
    How did I become a senior member? I only recently figured out where the restrooms are.

  7. #7
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Posts
    297
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    I agree with JeffD. I think trying to force form into music is counterintuitive. If you can't force your ideas into one rigid format, don't

  8. #8
    Senior Member Phil loves classical's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Location
    Ford Nation
    Posts
    3,195
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    By parallel octaves, I think you mean a 3rd voice starting the subject in an octave above or below the 1st voice? That is pretty common, and not against any counterpoint rules that I know of.
    "Forgive me, Majesty. I'm a vulgar man. But I assure you, my music is not.“ Mozart

  9. #9
    Senior Member EdwardBast's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    3,770
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    8

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by caters View Post
    So the progress I have on the fugue exposition is slow. But I have been told by a musician that composing a fugue is like learning a language, despite how simple it seems on the outside, it is hard and that my instinct to finish my C minor fugue and write another fugue is correct if I want to get good at writing fugues.

    I have also been told that I am limiting myself by only thinking in terms of what Bach would do and only studying Bach's fugues. But am I really limiting myself if Bach composed such a diverse array of fugues with the stricter rules of Baroque counterpoint?
    In learning to write tonal counterpoint that is exactly what you should do — but you aren't doing it. Respondents have pointed out that within the first four measures you did several things neither Bach nor anyone else in that era would have done. If you are really trying to write in Baroque style, you need to throw this one away and start over. It isn't salvagable.

    When you start over it might be a good idea to write five different expositions before deciding which to go with.

    'Ere I am J.H., the ghost in the machine.

    Terry Gilliam, Brazil

  10. #10
    Senior Member MarkMcD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Valencia
    Posts
    214
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    I'm going to keep an eye on this thread as I'm trying to write a fugue also and finding it really hard too.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •