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An amazing thing

17K views 166 replies 40 participants last post by  Oldhoosierdude 
#1 ·
My wife was playing Beethoven’s C-sharp minor quartet Op. 131, and I was listening on the edge of my seat. It struck me as quite amazing – how one person could single-handedly move music from late Mozart and Haydn to this in the span of 30 years. A whole new world and a far different one, one that continues to be our world today.

Nothing else to add, just wanted to register my amazement.
 
#60 ·
Bartok vs. Beethoven:
Beethoven exemplifies that there's something in all of us that struggles to embody and realize the true aim of our psychology or 'soul journey.' The integration of the psyche, as Jung put it. This is a universally recognized drive; survive. Bartok represents the darker side of our souls, isolated, severe, conflicted, which also is familiar to all: defeat, struggle, and the failure to consummate the pact of the soul. Neither one is foreign to us.

I think there must be an emotional component to Beethoven which is more direct than Bartok, but in ways more naive and simple. Apparently, it works. It is an easier path.
 
#62 · (Edited)
Bartok vs. Beethoven:
Beethoven exemplifies that there's something in all of us that struggles to embody and realize the true aim of our psychology or 'soul journey.' The integration of the psyche, as Jung put it. This is a universally recognized drive; survive. Bartok represents the darker side of our souls, isolated, severe, conflicted, which also is familiar to all: defeat, struggle, and the failure to consummate the pact of the soul. Neither one is foreign to us.

I think there must be an emotional component to Beethoven which is more direct than Bartok, but in ways more naive and simple. Apparently, it works. It is an easier path.
I was (more or less) with you until you described Beethoven's "path" as "easier" than Bartok's. There's nothing "naive" or "simple" about Beethoven's late works, neither technically nor spiritually, unless we use those words in recognition of the "second simplicity" achieved through struggle, which is a heroic achievement (we hear his battle in the works of his second period).
 
#63 · (Edited)
I have always thought that, unlike, say, the more ethereal utterances of the slow movements of the Hammerklavier or Op. 111 sonatas, there is something about most of the late quartets that can appeal to anyone at whatever musical or appreciative level he happens to be at at the time. And that, as his or her taste/life experience/musical knowledge developes, the quartets are always able to speak on that level. That's a truly amazing thing that doesn't apply to an awful lot of Art.
 
#64 ·
That seems true, and "easier" than Bartok.
 
#73 · (Edited)
Beethoven became Mozart's death age during the first half of 1806, by my possibly shaky reckoning. So some of his 1806 works may have been completed after that date. These include the Appassionata, Piano Concerto #4, the Razumovskys, the 4th Symphony, the Violin Concerto. and the C-minor WoO 80 variations. A busy year for Beethoven!

Productivitywise, did Mozart ever have such a string of hits in a single year? I'm curious.

In any event, this discussion seems to be slicing the baloney exceedingly fine.
 
#75 · (Edited)
Beethoven became Mozart's death age during the first half of 1806, by my possibly shaky reckoning. So some of his 1806 works may have been completed after that date. These include the Appassionata, Piano Concerto #4, the Razumovskys, the 4th Symphony, the Violin Concerto. and the C-minor WoO 80 variations. A busy year for Beethoven!

Productivitywise, did Mozart ever have such a string of hits in a single year? I'm curious.


In any event, this discussion seems to be slicing the baloney exceedingly fine.
Indeed, a productive year for Beethoven (1806).

Mozart's last year comes right now to mind regarding your question. Die Zauberflöte, La clemenza di Tito, Clarinet Concerto, Ave verum Corpus, Piano Concerto No. 27, Requiem in D minor, etc, all composed in 1791.
 
#74 · (Edited)
I’m rather surprised that anyone would compare the age at which particular works were composed as a measure of composers Mozart and Beethoven. Some of the greatest composers, probably Beethoven, certainly Brahms for example, were more cautious about composing ie. took longer, agonized over their compositions more than others.

I can’t think of any early works of Beethoven that sound weak or thin whereas I find that a number of Mozart’s do. Compare the earliest piano sonatas and concertos of Mozart with Beethoven’s. Likewise and even moreso, the early symphonies. Also, the earliest vocal works of Mozart were rather formulaic, if not boring. But Mozart learned quickly and the improvement a decade after these earlier works was rather astounding.
 
#77 ·
I'm rather surprised that anyone would compare the age at which particular works were composed as a measure of composers Mozart and Beethoven. Some of the greatest composers, probably Beethoven, certainly Brahms for example, were more cautious about composing ie. took longer, agonized over their compositions more than others.

I can't think of any early works of Beethoven that sound weak or thin whereas I find that a number of Mozart's do. Compare the earliest piano sonatas and concertos of Mozart with Beethoven's. Likewise and even moreso, the early symphonies. Also, the earliest vocal works of Mozart were rather formulaic, if not boring. But Mozart learned quickly and the improvement a decade after these earlier works was rather astounding.
Not really fair as Mozart's juvenelia survived rather too well. Nevertheless I would not say Mozart's early concertos inc K175, the VCs - even the bassoon concerto - are inferior works. The VCs are the only 18thc classical VCs that are in the modern repertoire.
Even the early piano sonatas k279-k284 are an accomplished set.
 
#82 · (Edited)
Just in passing, some time back I tried to estimate the amount of music, by duration, composed by the classical period composers in their working years. Obviously there were some assumptions made! But Mozart came in first, with Beethoven and Haydn each having about half his annual output. Haydn can fool us because he had such a long working career...
 
#90 ·
I don't see what's so abstruse about the late quartets in general and op. 131 in particular. The idiom is different. How would post Schoenberg then sound to most people? To me the late quartets are perfectly intelligible, not populist by any means, advanced, totally original and individual, but totally rooted in the art music tradition that Beethoven received. Each one is an incredibly satisfying musical cosmos. I suppose I have also grown up with the late piano sonatas, not too different in idiom, but few really seem to overfuss about them. These are great works also. I know that the Razumovsky quartets caused a great stir when they were published. surprising as that now seems.
Listen without preconceptions.
 
#96 ·
Amazing indeed--a bottomless mine of riches. Words can only trivialise Op. 131, so I'll be wilfully trivial... my five fave fun frolics where old misery guts shows his sense of whimsy:

- 4th movement, after the cadenzas when the theme returns, the 1st violin and cello make a hilarious drunken babel (link). What on earth?!

- End of the scherzo, all four instruments impersonate mice by bowing gently over the bridge (link). A little eerie? More than a little amusing.

- In fact the entire scherzo makes me smile with its faux-bungling modulations, confused pauses and petulant pizzicato.

- 3rd movement, Beethoven creates a cockeyed effect by snipping an 'inevitable' note. Later publishers added the missing note. In most recordings the 2nd violin plays a B3 to complete the phrase, but it's played Beethoven's way here (link) at 9:46

- The 'sprint finish' at the very end. v1-viola play weary half-notes while v2-cello jabber impatient eighth-notes. Finally they wait for their friends and everything comes together, before the cello dashes off again and the other instruments give rapid chase. A wonderfully individual climax (link)
 
#98 · (Edited)
My favorite late quartet is the Op. 135 in F. I like the way it is playful, with abrupt changes. I especially like the way he turns a diminished seventh into a dominant flat-nine by changing the root. At 18:30....

 
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#106 ·
Since we are talking of preferences now: Op. 132 is my favorite of the late quartets. Op. 131 is maybe third or fourth — a bit of a dog's breakfast to me. ;) I like them more tightly unified.
 
#120 · (Edited)
In the process of downloading it now. The $0.99 (99 cents) gave me pause for awhile. Had to revisit the budget, do cheap fast food for a few days, but managed to make it work.;)

I already have two sets of the Beethoven SQs on CDs, but this Amazon set comes on mp3s ready to load on my iPhone -much less work than ripping CDs and naming music files.

Thanks for the info Ken.
 
#116 ·
Just finished listening to the Op. 130 (replacement finale). One thing that struck me was how little of it owed anything to music that had come before, either Beethoven’s or anybody else’s. This music was all new; and since it had so little effect on music that followed, even via imitation, it’s still new. As Beethoven said of one of these quartets, “Thankfully, there’s less lack of fancy than ever before.”

Another is Beethoven’s marvelous fluency in writing. Sometimes you get the feeling that his successes were gained only through long struggle. This music (whatever the truth of the matter) sounds as if it flowed out of him as easily as we imagine was the case with Mozart. But certainly there was a lot of work involved; Cooper estimates that the late quartets, at least the first four which are the longer ones, took about six months each to complete.
 
#129 ·
My wife was playing Beethoven's C-sharp minor quartet Op. 131, and I was listening on the edge of my seat. It struck me as quite amazing - how one person could single-handedly move music from late Mozart and Haydn to this in the span of 30 years. A whole new world and a far different one, one that continues to be our world today.

Nothing else to add, just wanted to register my amazement.
Absolutely, an amazing piece, and it would still be among the most challenging pieces for a string quartet to play. No break for the musicians, this was unprecedented at the time. Having said that my favourite of the cycle is Op. 132, nowadays I just find Op. 131 too heavy.

You and your wife, as well as others here, would probably enjoy the movie "A Late Quartet" which has Op. 131 as its centerpiece. Its about the near breakup and reformation of a string quartet group. It gives a glimpse of the personal rivalries and strain on relationships and family that musicians face today. Some great performances by Christopher Walken, Catherine Keener and the late Philip Seymour Hoffman.

I like a quote from the film alluding to the technical difficulties of Op. 131: "It has seven movements and they're all connected. For us, it means playing without pause, no resting, no tuning. Our instruments must in time go out of tune each in its own quite different way. Was he maybe trying to point out some cohesion, some unity between random acts of life? What are we supposed to do, stop or struggle to continuously adjust to each other up to the end even if we are out of tune? I don't know."
 
#145 · (Edited)
The principal theme of the first movement, which is over 40 measures long, contains in proto form everything important in the movement. So I'm sure if you listen carefully enough you can learn to dislike the whole thing. ;)
 
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#142 ·
Oh good Lord - just revisited the OP piece - wow...and after repeatedly feeling so indifferent...just so beautiful. Why does some music hide it's light under a bushel?
some music is not immediately accessible, Beethoven late quartets certainly belong to this category. Another example are Hindemith's string quartets which at first sound strange, but after you digest them, they are almost as great as the Beethoven quartets. Or Scriabin piano sonatas.
the Op. 131 is a strange piece of music. I wonder what it is supposed to depict, if anything. When hearing it couple of days ago, my association was that it might be autobigrafical. Something similar like Smetana's From My Life. The first movement is melancholic childhood, the middle movements some peripeties of life, the last movement is full of fear of approaching death and the Grosse Fugue the madness of old age and death.
 
#147 ·
Well, this thread prompted me to go on an Opus 131 binge, which I've been on for a couple of days. (By explanation, I've only listened to it a couple of times, but it's been going around and around in my head.). Every time that happens, the same thing occurs: As wonderfully pathos laden and searching as the bookend first and last movements are, the place where my mind settles over and over is the variations, in which I wallow joyously for hours at a time. I actually always find myself thinking that this is the creative heart of the quartet. The opening fugue is a good introduction, but by the finale I sort of lose interest and listen perfunctorilly. Doesn't make the work any less great -- just affects its center of gravity. Strange but true.
 
#149 · (Edited)
...As wonderfully pathos laden and searching as the bookend first and last movements are, the place where my mind settles over and over is the variations, in which I wallow joyously for hours at a time. I actually always find myself thinking that this is the creative heart of the quartet.
Certainly the variations movements are the high points in several late Beethoven works. He wrote these as nobody has been able to since. The variations in the Op. 109 and 111 piano sonatas and the Op. 127, 132, and 131 quartets are pinnacles. The Op. 135 I would place at a more modest level...but it ain't chopped liver.
 
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