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Thread: After a long time, back to theory with a simple question - Voice leading IV-V

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    Default After a long time, back to theory with a simple question - Voice leading IV-V

    Hello, my friends

    After a hiatus in my theory studies, due to some personal problems, I'm back trying to get on the train at the station where I left.

    Basically, my question is: How would you connect a IV-V in root position with A-B in the soprano (key: C Maj).
    I've tried several solutions but it seems none worked because of the B in the soprano. This B collides with the rules I know for connecting root position chords.

    Thanks in advance

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    Senior Member EdwardBast's Avatar
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    Here are three solutions, the first goes to I, the others to VI:



    Iv-V rev.jpg
    Last edited by EdwardBast; Sep-23-2018 at 03:56.

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    Can't open the attatchment. Gives an error.

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    Senior Member EdwardBast's Avatar
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    I uploaded it to #2 ^ ^ ^ again as a jpeg. Tell me if that works. (It opens for me.)

    'Ere I am J.H., the ghost in the machine.

    Terry Gilliam, Brazil

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    Now I see it...Thanks

    A couple of questions... In the first two examples (In fact the same voicing for IV-V) isn't there a direct 5th between alto and tenor? Maybe it's admissible as it's in the inner voices.

    In the last example I'm not sure if you doubled the 3rd of the V by mistake (the doubling of th 3rd in the vi I understand).

    Thanks again

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    Senior Member EdwardBast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rbarata View Post
    Now I see it...Thanks

    A couple of questions... In the first two examples (In fact the same voicing for IV-V) isn't there a direct 5th between alto and tenor? Maybe it's admissible as it's in the inner voices.

    In the last example I'm not sure if you doubled the 3rd of the V by mistake (the doubling of th 3rd in the vi I understand).

    Thanks again
    The interior direct 5th is not a problem — and there really isn't an option. (The problem is the chosen progression ) Direct 5ths stand out when they are between the outer voices, but here it's fine.

    In the last example I doubled the third because it sounds better (the melodic motion in the tenor) and because, given the deceptive progression, having the second leading tone leap down doesn't bother me. Ideally, the B in the tenor should have moved to A, but leaving the 5th out in the VI chord, while acceptable, sounded less satisfactory.

    'Ere I am J.H., the ghost in the machine.

    Terry Gilliam, Brazil

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    Quote Originally Posted by EdwardBast View Post
    In the last example I doubled the third because it sounds better (the melodic motion in the tenor) and because, given the deceptive progression, having the second leading tone leap down doesn't bother me. Ideally, the B in the tenor should have moved to A, but leaving the 5th out in the VI chord, while acceptable, sounded less satisfactory.
    But I think there's a rule for not doubling the leading tone. Is it acceptable to break it? Or does it depends on the style?

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    Senior Member EdwardBast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rbarata View Post
    But I think there's a rule for not doubling the leading tone. Is it acceptable to break it? Or does it depends on the style?
    Yes there is such a rule. Generally it is not acceptable to break it. I made an exception that many would frown upon, so don't do it! I was pushing the boundaries because the situation you presented leaves so few options.
    Last edited by EdwardBast; Sep-23-2018 at 17:54.

    'Ere I am J.H., the ghost in the machine.

    Terry Gilliam, Brazil

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    Quote Originally Posted by EdwardBast View Post
    Yes there is such a rule. Generally it is not acceptable to break it. I made an exception that many would frown upon, so don't do it! I was pushing the boundaries because the situation you presented leaves so few options.
    Yes, the melody I've choosed has a lot of parallels with the bass and it creates a lot of problems such as this one.
    Using only root position chords is also highly limitative.

    Thanks for your help.

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    Senior Member EdwardBast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rbarata View Post
    Yes, the melody I've choosed has a lot of parallels with the bass and it creates a lot of problems such as this one.
    Using only root position chords is also highly limitative.

    Thanks for your help.
    Reread your first sentence, because that is an important lesson. One of the most important principles of good part writing is having contrary motion in the outer parts, or, put as a more general rule: Write good two part counterpoint between soprano and bass, that is, making both parts solid melodically and independent, and the rest is easy.
    Last edited by EdwardBast; Sep-24-2018 at 02:04.

    'Ere I am J.H., the ghost in the machine.

    Terry Gilliam, Brazil

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    Quote Originally Posted by EdwardBast View Post
    Reread your first sentence, because that is an important lesson. One of the most important principles of good part writing is having contrary motion in the outer parts, or, put as a more general rule: Write good two part counterpoint between soprano and bass, that is, making both parts solid melodically and independent, and the rest is easy.
    I reckon this was one of the best lessons I had lately in music theory. It eliminates many issues I had in the past.
    Thanks

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