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Thread: CD player has stopped working

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    Senior Member Joe B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by senza sordino View Post
    .....I wonder what will happen with a new CD player, new amp and new speakers? How much more would I hear?
    I would wager a lot! The amount of information that is contained on a well recorded CD is amazing. There are many people out there who believe there is no difference between listening to an $80 CD player vs an $800 CD player, that amps are all transparent and therefore sound the same, and only speakers make a difference in sound. But if you have good ears you'll hear the difference between equipment. Many hold that digital is just 0's and 1's, and you either get them or you don't, but all digital signals are represented and transmitted in the analogue domain. I've found that better equipment translates into better sound. The limiting factor becomes the size and depth of your wallet. You need to get yourself to your local stereo retailer and experience this yourself. Bring a few of your favorite discs which are 'burned' into your mind. I think you'll be amazed at the possibilities.
    I love music. I want music. I need music.

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    Senior Member bigshot's Avatar
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    I have done controlled listening tests of many amps and players... line level matched, direct A/B switched, blind... with myself, my friends and even with a professional sound mixer. I have yet to find an amp or player that doesn't perform to spec. I have yet to find someone who has claimed to hear a difference who is able to demonstrate that in controlled listening tests. It always comes down to casual comparisons without controls, bias and unwarranted confidence in their hearing ability.

    Audio electronics are designed to be audibly transparent. If one sounds different from another, the odds are that the reason is because the one that sounds different is defective.

    The one thing that is undeniably true is that there is no correlation between price and sound quality. One of the worst measuring pieces of home audio ever made was a piece of McIntosh gear, and in controlled tests, hundred dollar amps have come out equal with $10k mono blocks. Price does relate to fit and finish, but not sound fidelity.
    Last edited by bigshot; Mar-09-2019 at 20:49.
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    Senior Member Larkenfield's Avatar
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    I don’t believe in controlled listening tests. Sometimes you have to live with an amp in order to appreciate its differences. I’ve had five over the years and each one had a signature sound. I’ve had five headphone amps and each one has a signature sound. On hybrid/tube amps, when you change the tubes you get a different sound. So I don’t think the question is that there are no differences in sound, because some listeners have very very very good ears, it’s whether you enjoy whatever quality of sound the amp is producing with its subtle differences and whether you want to pay for those differences and the features each one has to connect with other units in your overall system.

    As far as playing CDs, I’d rather have a unit that can play almost anything, from a CD to a DVD to a Blu-ray disc or an SACD disc and not worry about any major differences in the quality of sound of that particular unit because it’s not the primary amp that I feel is far more important to be happy with. I would never buy an amp if I couldn’t send back after hearing it if I didn’t like it, or buy it from a store where you couldn’t exchange it after hearing it. And be happy with the speakers that you have.

    But I’ve never gone along with the so-called objective value of listening tests. I don’t believe in them, and I think some of the people who conduct them do not have very good ears. For instance, they are not sensitive about the different qualities of sound between all solid-state amps and tube equipment or have a deep enough appreciation of analog sound and its warm and rich benefits. It’s a whole different listening experience and for me far more satisfying than the sterile transparent all-digital sound that many ‘experts’ seem to like. The listening tests are just not personal enough. Sometimes a particular quality of sound might not be noticed until a month later of steady listening because it takes that long for the ears to adjust. But if you’re going all solid-state, it probably doesn’t make that much difference what amp you get and what unit you get for playing CDs. Let somebody else to choose the pieces for you out of convenience and live with it. But some people like to be more engaged with what they’re buying and listening to for hours at a time each day.
    Last edited by Larkenfield; Mar-09-2019 at 23:17.
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    Senior Member bigshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larkenfield View Post
    I don’t believe in controlled listening tests.
    I've found that people who don't believe in scientific tests are the most likely to be subject to incorrect impressions because they embrace bias and placebo effects instead of trying to eliminate them. All I can say is that it's a darn good thing your doctor believes in controlled testing, because if he didn't, you might be dead!
    Last edited by bigshot; Mar-11-2019 at 08:40.
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  7. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe B View Post
    The amount of information that is contained on a well recorded CD is amazing.
    The amount of information that is contained on a LP is amazing too. Enjoy!

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    Senior Member bigshot's Avatar
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    An LP can contain about 30/12 while a CD is 44.1/16. The range of human hearing with perfect ears at a fixed normal listening level would be about 40/12. CDs also don't have surface noise- pops and clicks.

    An LP can sound very good, but CDs are designed to provide perfect sound- for stereo recordings at least.
    Last edited by bigshot; Apr-14-2019 at 20:36.
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  10. #67
    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigshot View Post
    I've found that people who don't believe in scientific tests are the most likely to be subject to incorrect impressions because they embrace bias and placebo effects instead of trying to eliminate them. All I can say is that it's a darn good thing your doctor believes in controlled testing, because if he didn't, you might be dead!
    Why bother with tests, when you can check for yourself what sounds good. For example get a digital recorder, and play back files at different sample rates: 44.1. 48, 192,,,even try lower sample rates like 22, 16, and 8 (like rap guys use to give an "aged"lo-rez sound to drumbeats). In this way, you will KNOW what digital resolution is, and what it sounds like. But Bigshot is stuck in the consumer world. He probably doesn't have to deal with resolution, sample rates, and multi-channel mixes. This is where you can really hear things, not some unnamed Pentatone SACD.
    "The way out is through the door. Why is it that no one will use this method?"
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    Senior Member bigshot's Avatar
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    I answered your questions in other threads. You know, when you argue all scattershot like this across multiple subjects and threads, you only confuse the issue. You don't actually make any points. You should slow down and try to follow a logical path of discussion... one point at a time. Avoid ad hominem attacks and appeals to emotion. Focus on facts and stack them up logically to prove a point. You keep saying things that are clearly incorrect, and you sprinkle them in like salt and pepper randomly. You're using one incorrect statement as proof for another unrelated incorrect statement. That's a very disorganized way to argue. The only people you convince with that sort of smoke and mirrors technique are people who are already convinced. I suspect that that group of people might just be limited to you yourself.

    Think outside yourself and your own experience. Be honest and have an inquiring mind. Try to engage and learn from others. It will help you a lot.
    Last edited by bigshot; Apr-30-2019 at 17:46.
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  13. #69
    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    You're on here so much, that you must work as a mod. Too bad they couldn't get someone who was more open to improved CD sound. You may be some sort of expert, but I don't think you have as good an ear/brain intelligence about sound. You're too numbers - oriented.
    "The way out is through the door. Why is it that no one will use this method?"
    -Confucious

    "In Spring! In the creation of art it must be as it is in Spring!" -Arnold Schoenberg

    "We only become what we are by the radical and deep-seated refusal of that which others have made us." -Jean-Paul Sartre

    "I don't mind dying, as long as I can still breathe." ---Me

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    Senior Member eljr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millionrainbows View Post
    You're on here so much, that you must work as a mod. Too bad they couldn't get someone who was more open to improved CD sound. You may be some sort of expert, but I don't think you have as good an ear/brain intelligence about sound. You're too numbers - oriented.
    Personally, if something can't be qualified and quantified..... and can't be verified in double blind tests, well, need I say more?
    I can't suspend disbelief which is what you need to do.

    My opinion on this is a little different than most. I tend to buy good audio equipment, SACD vs CD or HD downloads rather than CD quality downloads but I don't expect "extra" sound. I simply expect the best sound available to be delivered.

    If someone hears a difference, God Bless them. I have never noticed a difference.

    but what I would tell them is if you hear a difference don't claim that there is an audible differance until this can be verified by science. Simple claim YOU can hear a differance and leave it at that. You very well might. There can be many reasons for this.

    For example,
    I know for a fact, my audio sounds better "to me" in sunny room filled with windows (sound bouncing off) than in any windowless basement room which is acoustically perfect.
    Saturn, the Bringer of Old Age

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    Senior Member eljr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millionrainbows View Post
    Why bother with tests, when you can check for yourself what sounds good. For example get a digital recorder, and play back files at different sample rates: 44.1. 48, 192,,,even try lower sample rates like 22, 16, and 8 (like rap guys use to give an "aged"lo-rez sound to drumbeats). In this way, you will KNOW what digital resolution is, and what it sounds like. But Bigshot is stuck in the consumer world. He probably doesn't have to deal with resolution, sample rates, and multi-channel mixes. This is where you can really hear things, not some unnamed Pentatone SACD.
    If it sounds better to you, why not just be happy and move on?
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    Senior Member eljr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigshot View Post
    All I can say is that it's a darn good thing your doctor believes in controlled testing
    It's really ill advised to argue against science but humans are emotional messes and if they what to believe something, they will toss science out the window with the was water.
    Saturn, the Bringer of Old Age

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    Senior Member eljr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigshot View Post
    I have done controlled listening tests of many amps and players... line level matched, direct A/B switched, blind... with myself, my friends and even with a professional sound mixer. I have yet to find an amp or player that doesn't perform to spec. I have yet to find someone who has claimed to hear a difference who is able to demonstrate that in controlled listening tests. It always comes down to casual comparisons without controls, bias and unwarranted confidence in their hearing ability.

    Audio electronics are designed to be audibly transparent. If one sounds different from another, the odds are that the reason is because the one that sounds different is defective.

    The one thing that is undeniably true is that there is no correlation between price and sound quality. One of the worst measuring pieces of home audio ever made was a piece of McIntosh gear, and in controlled tests, hundred dollar amps have come out equal with $10k mono blocks. Price does relate to fit and finish, but not sound fidelity.
    Will you deny that $10k mono blocks can sound better to an individual than does a hundred dollar amp?

    Because if you do, you are denying the science of psychoacoustics.
    Saturn, the Bringer of Old Age

  19. #74
    Senior Member bigshot's Avatar
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    Psychoacoustics is the fundamental principle behind audio compression codecs. I don't see how it applies to amplifiers. You may be thinking of a different term. Or perhaps you mean the psychology of perceptual error? Sometimes irony doesn't come through in text.

    ---

    Some quick citations to look up if anyone is interested...

    Stereo Review tested a number of amplifiers across various price points and types. The listeners were self declared believers and sceptics as to whether audiophile claims are true or not. There were 13 sessions with different numbers of listeners each time. The difference between sceptic and believer performance was small, with 2 sceptics getting the highest correct score and 1 believer getting the lowest. The overall average was 50.5% getting it right, so that is the same as you would expect from a random guess result. They determined that the cheapest Pioneer amp was perfectly capable of outperforming the more expensive amps and it was ‘striking similar to the Levinson‘.

    A test of identical CDP and speakers but different amps and cables, one being $300 and the other $5000. The results with 7 listeners of varying interest in hifi and 10 trials was a fail. http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/gen...s/1/12590.html

    Various amps were tested blind, in pairs where the preferred amp went through to the next round. The winner was one of the cheaper amps called the Trends Audio TA-10 at $130 http://www.stereomojo.com/SHOOTOUT2007INTEGRATEDS.htm

    "The Richard Clark Amp Challenge is a listening test intended to show that as long as a modern audio amplifier is operated within its linear range (below clipping), the differences between amps are inaudible to the human ear." It is an ABX test which to pass needs two sets of 12 correct identifications. Reputedly over a thousand have taken the test and none have passed. http://www.tom-morrow-land.com/tests/ampchall/index.htm

    Bob Carver's experiments in amplifier modeling: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Ca...ifier_modeling

    ---

    Assuming there is no defect in manufacture or design, the reasons to buy one amp over another are build quality, cooling performance, flexibility, quality of mechanical connections, reputation of manufacturer, special features, size, weight, aesthetics, and cost. As long as an amp is kept below clipping, there shouldn't be any audible difference between one solid state amp and another. Tube amps are a different animal, because they are designed to have audible coloration and distortion. Solid state amps are designed to be clean and transparent. They should all sound the same, or they are defective.

    I'm very interested in this subject and I've got some good contacts in the audio engineering field. If anyone has a solid state amp that sounds clearly different, and would be willing to lend it for tests, I can arrange for a scientific listening test to verify that. So far, I haven't found any and the reports of differences all end up being anecdotal impressions with few controls applied to the listening comparison.
    Last edited by bigshot; May-06-2019 at 18:57.
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  20. #75
    Senior Member eljr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigshot View Post
    Psychoacoustics is the fundamental principle behind audio compression codecs. I don't see how it applies to amplifiers. You may be thinking of a different term. Or perhaps you mean the psychology of perceptual error? Sometimes irony doesn't come through in text.
    psy·cho·a·cous·tics
    /ˌsīkōəˈko͞ostiks/
    noun
    the branch of psychology concerned with the perception of sound and its physiological effects.
    Saturn, the Bringer of Old Age

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