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    Senior Member bigshot's Avatar
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    Amplifiers have high fidelity to the point of audibly transparency. There shouldn't be any psychological or physiological effect any different than any other audible transparent component in the chain... except perhaps for placebo effect and bias I suppose.
    Last edited by bigshot; May-10-2019 at 18:01.
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    Senior Member eljr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigshot View Post
    Amplifiers have high fidelity to the point of audibly transparency. There shouldn't be any psychological or physiological effect any different than any other audible transparent component in the chain... except perhaps for placebo effect and bias I suppose.
    you are not following at all

    I am not disputing this.

    what I am saying is that there is more to the hearing experience than meets the ears

    Read my posts again.

    The same "sound" can sound better or worse to someone depending on non sound factors.

    In my case, having saved up for 3 years years to buy 500 watt mono blocks from a Mercedes
    of audio brand makes the experience better "for me" even though there is no improved measurable differences.

    You simply cannot ignore the psychoacoustic effect. It is real. The effect on the individual is measurable.,

    I am the exception. I realize that the perceived improvement in sound is from non sound factors.

    Like I said, I could never enjoy perfect audio in a windowless basement as much as in a well, naturally lighted room with big windows.

    I hope you can understand the differance. I am not arguing sound science. I am speaking to the listening experience in total and how it effects sound to the individual.


    Psychoacoustics is the scientific study of sound perception and audiology – how humans perceive various sounds. More specifically, it is the branch of science studying the psychological and physiological responses associated with sound
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    Senior Member apricissimus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eljr View Post
    you are not following at all

    I am not disputing this.

    what I am saying is that there is more to the hearing experience than meets the ears

    Read my posts again.

    The same "sound" can sound better or worse to someone depending on non sound factors.

    In my case, having saved up for 3 years years to buy 500 watt mono blocks from a Mercedes
    of audio brand makes the experience better "for me" even though there is no improved measurable differences.

    You simply cannot ignore the psychoacoustic effect. It is real. The effect on the individual is measurable.,

    I am the exception. I realize that the perceived improvement in sound is from non sound factors.

    Like I said, I could never enjoy perfect audio in a windowless basement as much as in a well, naturally lighted room with big windows.

    I hope you can understand the differance. I am not arguing sound science. I am speaking to the listening experience in total and how it effects sound to the individual.


    Psychoacoustics is the scientific study of sound perception and audiology – how humans perceive various sounds. More specifically, it is the branch of science studying the psychological and physiological responses associated with sound
    So . . . it sounds better to you because you scrimped and saved for three years, and not because of any actual physical differences in the sound production?

    Hypothetically, if the person who sold you this equipment was purely trying to swindle you by selling you cheap equipment at some inflated cost, would your enjoyment be the same?

  4. #79
    Senior Member bigshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eljr View Post
    what I am saying is that there is more to the hearing experience than meets the ears The same "sound" can sound better or worse to someone depending on non sound factors.
    When you are going out to buy an amplifier or player, you look for how it handles audio fidelity... Is the sound coming out the same as it was going in, or is the audio component distorting or coloring it in some way? If it is able to do its job transparently, it is functionally just the same as every other transparent piece of equipment... audibly perfect.

    Now that doesn't mean that you like the color of the case it comes in... or if the guy who sold it to you was a jerk and every time you look at it you think of him... or if you have heartburn from a fast food lunch and you're so uncomfortable that even Mozart sounds like 12 tone row. None of that reflects on the performance of the electronics. That is all based on *your* performance as a listener.

    You and I probably feel quite different right now. One of us may be wearing tight shoes and the other may be in a bathrobe. One of us may be happy and content, and the other just went through a grueling day at the office. When I recommend a specific piece of equipment to you in an internet forum like this, I try to focus on the shared set of experiences as it pertains to the component. I try to prevent my purely personal and subjective experiences from affecting what I say, because I know you aren't experiencing the same things in life that I am... and all you're really interested in is questions like "Does this amp sound good?"

    Now I know some people go through their lives with an attitude of subjective solipsism. They are incapable of seeing things from any perspective than their own. They focus inward with hippie zen and try to feel the life energy in the things around them... plants, rocks, CD players... I find those people to be very amusing, but I sure wouldn't take medical or legal advice from them, and I wouldn't ask them for a recommendation for a major purchase like a stereo system.

    The thing about subjectivism is that by definition, it only applies ONLY TO YOU. I'm very happy if gazing at the aqua blue color of the lights on your McIntosh amp makes you dream of dolphins frolicking in the Pacific Ocean. That might greatly improve your enjoyment of recordings of whale songs and sea chanties. But to me, it means jack diddly. I like magenta and my dog prefers olive green.

    You seem to have confused psychoacoustics and solipsism. Psychoacoustics is a science, not a philosophy or lifestyle. I'm interested in psychoacoustics because it involves the way all of us perceive sound... auditory masking, how harmonic groups of notes are heard, limits of perception, the affect of bias... all these things are fascinating aspects of psychoacoustics, and they are all areas of scientific study. Psychoacoustics doesn't deal with how you personally *feel* about sound. It deals with how all humans *perceive* it.

    Your need to argue the point seems to come down to plain old bias. All of us are subject to the effects of bias... Expectation bias, confirmation bias, bandwagon effect... These things have a massive influence on how we *feel* about sound. You can either throw up your hands and surrender to your inaccurate perception of the world around you, or you can work to understand these perceptual errors so you can filter them out and gain a better idea of the way the real world works. Or you can harness bias for your own purposes and have a nice glass of craft beer and a comfy chair handy for when you listen to CDs. But none of that has anything to do with whether you buy a Oinkyo receiver or an expensive mono block amp.

    If you master your perception and eliminate all that pesky bias, you will find that most solid state components sound exactly the same, regardless of price range. And thankfully for us living in the 21st century, with very few exceptions, amps and players are audibly perfect. If you're looking for liberating feelings, that information should be very effective at raising your spirits.

    By the way, the study of bias is a very interesting subject, and along with logic, it should be taught in public schools. We've raised a generation of people who feel without thinking and have no tools for discerning between their solipsist perception and the real world around them. More info on bias here... https://corporatefinanceinstitute.co...ognitive-bias/
    Last edited by bigshot; May-11-2019 at 22:23.
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  5. #80
    Senior Member eljr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigshot View Post
    The thing about subjectivism is that by definition, it only applies ONLY TO YOU. I'm very happy if gazing at the aqua blue color of the lights on your McIntosh amp makes you dream of dolphins frolicking in the Pacific Ocean. That might greatly improve your enjoyment of recordings of whale songs and sea chanties. But to me, it means jack diddly. I like magenta and my dog prefers olive green.
    This speaks to arrogance and ignorance, nothing more.

    You simply do not understand. I am not a subjective. I am an objectivity that buys based on the numbers but you are being flat out ignorant of the human experience, the power of psychology and relevance of perspective.

    You need to read this. You do not understand at all. "Psychoacoustics is the scientific study of sound perception and audiology – how humans perceive various sounds. More specifically, it is the branch of science studying the psychological and physiological responses associated with sound (including noise, speech and music). It can be further categorized as a branch of psychophysics. Psychoacoustics received its name from a field within psychology—i.e., recognition science—which deals with all kinds of human perceptions. It is an interdisciplinary field of many areas, including psychology, acoustics, electronic engineering, physics, biology, physiology, and computer science"



    By the way, the study of bias is a very interesting subject, and along with logic, it should be taught in public schools. We've raised a generation of people who feel without thinking and have no tools for discerning between their solipsist perception and the real world around them. More info on bias here...
    Here we agree. As we do about the principles of sound science. Where you go wrong is thinking you element bias in your day to day life or even when you listen to your music. You don't. You can't. It is part of us, it is primal, evolved from a survival strategy.

    Thanks for the link on bias but I'd more apt to teach a course on it than learn from that shallow link.

    You don't even understand that I agree with you but I factor in AFTERWORD how our bias is a part of who and what we are. There is no way to eliminate it from daily life which is why we jump though hoops in science to do our best to eliminate it.

    In all honestly dude, drop the pompous snark or don't reply.
    Last edited by eljr; May-12-2019 at 02:07.
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    Senior Member eljr's Avatar
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    Unless you are a machine listening to music, your environment will affect your perception of the sound.

    peace
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    Senior Member bigshot's Avatar
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    When I test audio components, I eliminate bias. When I listen to music I employ bias. Bias isn't necessarily bad. It's just lousy when it comes to choosing an amp or player. Sound fidelity is objective. To measure it, you have to eliminate subjectivity so you're sure that you're measuring the performance of the electronics, not the vagaries of your perception. Listening to music is completely different. It's totally subjective. Apples and oranges.

    The problem with audiophiles is that they try to imbue wires and transistors with artistic spirit. A wire is a wire, and a transistor is a transistor. Determining how you feel on a spiritual level about something you plug in the wall is a stupid way to evaluate electronics.
    Last edited by bigshot; May-12-2019 at 05:11.
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  9. #83
    Senior Member eljr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigshot View Post
    When I test audio components, I eliminate bias. When I listen to music I employ bias. Bias isn't necessarily bad. It's just lousy when it comes to choosing an amp or player. Sound fidelity is objective. To measure it, you have to eliminate subjectivity so you're sure that you're measuring the performance of the electronics, not the vagaries of your perception. Listening to music is completely different. It's totally subjective. Apples and oranges.

    The problem with audiophiles is that they try to imbue wires and transistors with artistic spirit. A wire is a wire, and a transistor is a transistor.

    Exactly! This is all I am saying and have said.

    Determining how you feel on a spiritual level about something you plug in the wall is a stupid way to evaluate electronics.
    I agree with this too but be aware, there are measurable physiological RESPONSES to the overall listening experience that come from aesthetics, environment and perception. In face, environment even affects behavior. This is scientific fact.

    Nothing spiritual about it.

    Thank you for the tempered, considered reply.
    Saturn, the Bringer of Old Age

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    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigshot View Post
    A wire is a wire, and a transistor is a transistor.
    No, that's not true. Silver wire is better than aluminum or copper.

    There is a difference between FETs and regular transistors.

    Guitarists have known for decades that germanium transistors are better in fuzz boxes.

    Burr-Brown makes better D-A conversion chips than others.

    Some types of resistors sound better in amplifiers.
    Last edited by millionrainbows; May-31-2019 at 13:40.
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    Senior Member bigshot's Avatar
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    You're repeating things other people have told you without knowing the science behind it and without doing any controlled listening tests yourself. A wire is a wire and a transistor is a transistor. If something is audibly transparent, you can improve its measurements, but it will still sound exactly the same. There's a line beyond which human ears can't hear. The thresholds of audibility are just as important as the specs of an audio component. Without one, you can't understand the other. Better specs don't necessarily mean better sound quality.
    Last edited by bigshot; May-31-2019 at 18:09.
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    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigshot View Post
    The thresholds of audibility are just as important as the specs of an audio component. Without one, you can't understand the other. Better specs don't necessarily mean better sound quality.
    And never the twain shall meet, according to bigshot. Yet, when anyone dares to associate the two even indirectly, without intent or bias, as in "this expensive CD player sounds better than this cheap one," then bigshot cannot tolerate the connection. He doesn't even believe that jitter and clock error are audible.
    Last edited by millionrainbows; Jun-02-2019 at 13:36.
    "The way out is through the door. Why is it that no one will use this method?"
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    "I don't mind dying, as long as I can still breathe." ---Me

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    Senior Member bigshot's Avatar
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    Show me controlled tests where people can hear the difference between SACD and CD using the exact same mastering.
    Show me a test that shows that a high end amplifier and a cheap receiver sound clearly different.
    Show me a test showing jitter at the levels it occurs in home audio equipment is audible.
    In every post I make, I provide my proofs. They're the links down there in my sig file. You haven't even looked at them.
    You're just butt hurt because you want validation and you aren't getting it because you're wrong. I'm beginning to think you're constantly calling me out like this because you want attention. Move on please.
    Last edited by bigshot; Jun-02-2019 at 18:54.
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    Senior Member eljr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigshot View Post
    Show me controlled tests where people can hear the difference between SACD and CD using the exact same mastering.
    Show me a test that shows that a high end amplifier and a cheap receiver sound clearly different.
    Show me a test showing jitter at the levels it occurs in home audio equipment is audible.
    In every post I make, I provide my proofs. They're the links down there in my sig file. You haven't even looked at them.
    You're just butt hurt because you want validation and you aren't getting it because you're wrong. I'm beginning to think you're constantly calling me out like this because you want attention. Move on please.
    You need to be a bit more... understanding.

    People do not accept science as soon as it is evolved. It takes time for science to slowly breakdown beliefs.

    Think of how much more advanced the human race would be if it accepted science as soon it unearthed something. Most all scientific break through is repealed by existing science itself when first brought forward! Why? Because people are involved. And people are emotion and rely on past beliefs. You actually threaten ones security when you try to change a belief they have.


    Just my 2 cents.
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    Senior Member KenOC's Avatar
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    Someone wrote words to the effect that, no matter how meritorius a new scientific understanding is, it is often accepted only when the old scientists die.


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  17. #90
    Senior Member bigshot's Avatar
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    It'll never fly, Orville!

    The irony is that this isn't even theoretical. You can go to Amazon and buy a CD player for $50 that proves that all of this actually works! The problem is the same as it has always been... lack of critical thinking skills.
    Last edited by bigshot; Jun-02-2019 at 22:30.
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