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Thread: Fugue in G Progress Thread

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    Default Fugue in G Progress Thread

    So I have started slow. Just the subject, stretto with the subject, retrograde, inversion, and retrograde inversion so far.

    Here is the PDF file of it:

    Fugue Subject Development.pdf

    I am wanting to do an interval analysis of the strettos I have so that I can see which strettos are perfectly okay to use and which ones aren't. That way I can narrow it down and then do strettos with the retrograde and analyze those and eventually get all the possible strettos without augmentation or diminution. That way I can look at it and figure out if I want a stretto, which one to use. But I'm not sure how to go about this interval analysis, especially since there are notes overlapping other notes. I mean, if I come across a 9th would I put it as 9 or 2? By the way, just so you know, I am doing this fugue Baroque style. So I have been listening to a lot of Bach.

    And how would I do an interval analysis of a stretto? Any different than if the 2 voices started at the same time?

    And of course I would have to repeat this for every countersubject and if I want multiple subjects, every subject as well. And my inversion is a diatonic inversion. In other words, as close to a true inversion while at the same time, making sure there are no accidentals.
    Last edited by caters; Oct-25-2018 at 06:51.

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    Senior Member shirime's Avatar
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    Looking forward to hearing this finished. I am a big fan of fugues.

    With 2 voice counterpoint as seen in the pdf file you posted, 9 is probably best to use to describe intervals of 9ths and 2 and 2nds. They are fairly synonymous but not completely. See how this is done in J.J. Fux's Study of Counterpoint.

    Stretto is a nice developmental technique to use, so see how Bach does it in fugue episodes, where the subject may only appear in fragment rather than in full.

    Have you done a formal analysis of a Bach fugue to guide you with the structure of this fugue?

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    Senior Member ArsMusica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by caters View Post
    So I have started slow. Just the subject, stretto with the subject, retrograde, inversion, and retrograde inversion so far.

    Here is the PDF file of it:

    Fugue Subject Development.pdf

    I am wanting to do an interval analysis of the strettos I have so that I can see which strettos are perfectly okay to use and which ones aren't. That way I can narrow it down and then do strettos with the retrograde and analyze those and eventually get all the possible strettos without augmentation or diminution. That way I can look at it and figure out if I want a stretto, which one to use. But I'm not sure how to go about this interval analysis, especially since there are notes overlapping other notes. I mean, if I come across a 9th would I put it as 9 or 2? By the way, just so you know, I am doing this fugue Baroque style. So I have been listening to a lot of Bach.

    And how would I do an interval analysis of a stretto? Any different than if the 2 voices started at the same time?

    And of course I would have to repeat this for every countersubject and if I want multiple subjects, every subject as well. And my inversion is a diatonic inversion. In other words, as close to a true inversion while at the same time, making sure there are no accidentals.
    Greetings caters:

    I have a few comments to make regarding your stretti but first I must ask a question. You state that you are doing this fugue Baroque style. If you mean strict 18th-century AKA tonal counterpoint style you have broken quite a few rules. So my question is are you, in fact, intending to adhere to the rules of 18th-century counterpoint or are you taking a freer approach? (Which is fine if you are.)

    If I may, measure 8, for example has a number of "forbiddens" (according to the rules of 18th-century counterpoint). You have a parallel fifth on the second beat (B-F# to A-E) and parallel ninths directly following (B-A to A-G to G-F#). I see quite a few more forbidden parallelisms and some other problems...but again these are only problems IF you are intending to adhere to the rules/practices of Bachian counterpoint.

    I am not trying to be overly critical here at all so please don't take offense. As I said, for me to comment I need to know what you're stylistic intentions are.

    FWIW I have my PhD in composition and am currently working on a 7-movement symphony, three movements of which are fugues. I love composing fugues!
    Last edited by ArsMusica; Oct-25-2018 at 08:35.
    If it is art, it is not for all, and if it is for all, it is not art. Arnold Schoenberg

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    I do hope you stray away from boring Bach and develop a more personal style of fugue. Infinitely more interesting than stale formulaic neo-baroque impressions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shirime View Post
    Looking forward to hearing this finished. I am a big fan of fugues.

    With 2 voice counterpoint as seen in the pdf file you posted, 9 is probably best to use to describe intervals of 9ths and 2 and 2nds. They are fairly synonymous but not completely. See how this is done in J.J. Fux's Study of Counterpoint.

    Stretto is a nice developmental technique to use, so see how Bach does it in fugue episodes, where the subject may only appear in fragment rather than in full.

    Have you done a formal analysis of a Bach fugue to guide you with the structure of this fugue?
    I have been doing analyses of Bach's fugues. So far I have analyzed Fugue in C minor WTC I, probably the easiest fugue not only to play but also to analyze.

    Quote Originally Posted by ArsMusica View Post
    Greetings caters:

    I have a few comments to make regarding your stretti but first I must ask a question. You state that you are doing this fugue Baroque style. If you mean strict 18th-century AKA tonal counterpoint style you have broken quite a few rules. So my question is are you, in fact, intending to adhere to the rules of 18th-century counterpoint or are you taking a freer approach? (Which is fine if you are.)

    If I may, measure 8, for example has a number of "forbiddens" (according to the rules of 18th-century counterpoint). You have a parallel fifth on the second beat (B-F# to A-E) and parallel ninths directly following (B-A to A-G to G-F#). I see quite a few more forbidden parallelisms and some other problems...but again these are only problems IF you are intending to adhere to the rules/practices of Bachian counterpoint.

    I am not trying to be overly critical here at all so please don't take offense. As I said, for me to comment I need to know what you're stylistic intentions are.

    FWIW I have my PhD in composition and am currently working on a 7-movement symphony, three movements of which are fugues. I love composing fugues!
    I do intend to stick to the rules of 18th century counterpoint for this fugue. I tried writing a baroque style fugue before, focusing more on melody and harmony and it wasn't until months later that I realized I broke the rules without intending to break the rules(having parallel octaves in a section with just 2 voices was the most obvious one but there were probably several rules I broke besides that).

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    Well Tempered Piano.pdf

    So I have written a countersubject with this process:

    1st iteration, all quarters, restricted to the notes of D, G, and A(I, IV, and V of D major, the key of the answer)
    2nd iteration, all quarters, restricted to 3 triads, D major, G major, and A major(this is where I start thinking "will this lead to a parallel octave? will it lead to a dissonance not being resolved? Will it lead to a leap that I have to fill in?")
    3rd iteration, all quarters, More fitting harmony
    4th iteration, complementary rhythm, actual melody(and it just so happens that the 3 iterations before it prevent me from breaking rules of motion and make sure the majority of motion is either oblique or contrary when it comes to the actual melody)

    But I don't think I will be able to do this for other countersubjects. So what do I do then if say I want a second countersubject? I do have troubles making 3 voice counterpoint and 4 voice counterpoint not sound like just a series of chords with very little melody instead of 3-4 independent melodies. After all, there are only so many harmonies you can write down with any given root where all the intervals are consonant(which includes 4ths in inverted chords) and there are 3 notes. Most 4 note harmonies are either octave extensions of triads or are 7th chords.

    Also, here is how I was thinking of modulating:

    G major -> E minor -> A minor -> C major -> F major -> D minor -> D major -> G major

    The modulations to these keys are main modulations:

    E minor
    C major
    F major
    D major
    G major

    The modulations to these keys are secondary modulations

    A minor(subdominant of E minor that leads to C major)
    D minor(Relative minor of F major that leads to D major)

    I have thought about that modulation chain enough that this resulted in every key directly related to the next one in the sequence.
    Last edited by caters; Nov-01-2018 at 14:32.

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