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Thread: Best non-Ludwig works from 1800-1825

  1. #16
    Senior Member stomanek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodduck View Post
    Cherubini wrote a number of masses which are among the best choral works of their time. They are serious in tone - Beethoven would have liked that - often imaginative, and more to my taste than Haydn's. He also wrote a fine symphony, some excellent quartets, and operas. Medea is certainly impressive as sung by Callas, even if in the bastardized Italian version with recitatives by Lachner. Brahms considered it a high achievement in dramatic music.
    I did listen to some of the requiem on you tube just now - half of it anyway. It's an attractive work - but in my view there's a huge gulf between this choral work and the great choral works in the repertoire - Bach and Mozart's best masses - Beethoven's Missa Solemnis etc.

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    Senior Member joen_cph's Avatar
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    Kuhlau wasn´t mentioned -
    there are some fine works, including

    - Piano Concerto, rather Beethovenian (1812) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiYiXly0Jl0
    - 3 Piano Quartets, the first two being from before 1825 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlYQ...g4rR-lSzz-7wnU (the marco polo recording is better IMO)
    - 3 Flute Quintets, including no.2 (1823) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVgPW3gGkLk
    - 3 Fantasias for Solo Flute https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0GGrdfvi5A
    Last edited by joen_cph; Nov-09-2018 at 12:37.

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  5. #18
    Senior Member Allerius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stomanek View Post
    I did listen to some of the requiem on you tube just now - half of it anyway. It's an attractive work - but in my view there's a huge gulf between this choral work and the great choral works in the repertoire - Bach and Mozart's best masses - Beethoven's Missa Solemnis etc.
    Your opinion. I recognize that I don't know much of Cherubini yet, but the fact that Beethoven and Brahms (among others) had him in high steem makes me want to know his works, not attack him. And I would never bash a work by a famous composer (even it he was famous only in his time) by listening to it partly and only once.

    Also, the fact that a composer is largely forgotten now doesn't mean that his works aren't good. Vivaldi, Mahler and even J.S. Bach had to be rediscovered, and I don't think that there are any doubts about their genius. What if there are other great composers waiting to be rediscovered?

    About your comparison of Cherubini with Mozart and Bach: I think that it's pointless, for the discussion here is about compositions from 1800 to 1825 and Beethoven said that "Among all the composers alive Cherubini is the most worthy of respect."
    Last edited by Allerius; Nov-09-2018 at 15:22.
    “To do good whenever one can, to love liberty above all else, never to deny the truth, even though it be before the throne.” - Ludwig van Beethoven.

  6. #19
    Senior Member stomanek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allerius View Post
    Your opinion. I recognize that I don't know much of Cherubini yet, but the fact that Beethoven and Brahms (among others) had him in high steem makes me want to know his works, not attack him. And I would never bash a work by a famous composer (even it he was famous only in his time) by listening to it partly and only once.

    Also, the fact that a composer is largely forgotten now doesn't mean that his works aren't good. Vivaldi, Mahler and even J.S. Bach had to be rediscovered, and I don't think that there are any doubts about their genius. What if there are other great composers waiting to be rediscovered?

    About your comparison of Cherubini with Mozart and Bach: I think that it's pointless, for the discussion here is about compositions from 1800 to 1825 and Beethoven said that "Among all the composers alive Cherubini is the most worthy of respect."
    For me it is not necessary to listen to entire works to understand the essential quality of a work. It would for example - be pointless to listen to all four movements of a symphony if the first movement is disappointing. Some works provide hints that repeated listenings are necessary - and I make my own judgement about this. I did not hear anything in 20 minutes of Cherubini that made me think listening to the whole work would be worthwhile. We all have our own way in music. I very rarely experience jaw dropping moments when I listen to composers outside of the canon. The last time was V.Williams wasps overture and I now am a RVW fan.

    Beethoven may have been saying Cherubini is the best of a bad bunch.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stomanek View Post
    For me it is not necessary to listen to entire works to understand the essential quality of a work. It would for example - be pointless to listen to all four movements of a symphony if the first movement is disappointing...
    That’s a rather surprising statement. I would have missed some amazing symphony movements, especially when it comes to lesser-known works, if I had quit after the first movement.

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  9. #21
    Senior Member stomanek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveM View Post
    That’s a rather surprising statement. I would have missed some amazing symphony movements, especially when it comes to lesser-known works, if I had quit after the first movement.
    Well - I have to use my judgement. I dont have time to plough through works that seem to offer no promise in the first 10-20 minutes. I have under my belt the symphonies of Mozart, Beethoven, Haydn, Schubert, Mendelssohn, Schumann, Brahms, Tchaik, Sibelius, Mahler, Dvorak, Franck, RVW, Elgar, Shost, Walton.

    Rach sy I tried the 1st mvt test and didnt like. I was forced at a concert to sit through all of rach 2 and still didnt like. I think it's a fair strategy and I dont think I have missed much - if I have - I'll let it go. I prefer to listen to composers who pen a good 1st mvt

  10. #22
    Senior Member Lisztian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stomanek View Post
    Well - I have to use my judgement. I dont have time to plough through works that seem to offer no promise in the first 10-20 minutes. I have under my belt the symphonies of Mozart, Beethoven, Haydn, Schubert, Mendelssohn, Schumann, Brahms, Tchaik, Sibelius, Mahler, Dvorak, Franck, RVW, Elgar, Shost, Walton.

    Rach sy I tried the 1st mvt test and didnt like. I was forced at a concert to sit through all of rach 2 and still didnt like. I think it's a fair strategy and I dont think I have missed much - if I have - I'll let it go. I prefer to listen to composers who pen a good 1st mvt
    How many listens, generally, before you decide a movement/work is no good?
    Last edited by Lisztian; Nov-11-2018 at 03:04.

  11. #23
    Senior Member Dimace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stomanek View Post
    For me it is not necessary to listen to entire works to understand the essential quality of a work. It would for example - be pointless to listen to all four movements of a symphony if the first movement is disappointing. Some works provide hints that repeated listenings are necessary - and I make my own judgement about this. I did not hear anything in 20 minutes of Cherubini that made me think listening to the whole work would be worthwhile. We all have our own way in music. I very rarely experience jaw dropping moments when I listen to composers outside of the canon. The last time was V.Williams wasps overture and I now am a RVW fan.

    Beethoven may have been saying Cherubini is the best of a bad bunch.

    With all my respect, this statement (10 to 20 min, 1st movement) is somehow wired, because, is well known, that in many symphonies and concerts, the ''hammer'' movement is the second one (the andante, adagio, Lento, Langsam, etc.) A statement maybe I could agree with you is that, before Beethoven, the 3rd movements of the symphonies, weren't so interesting or motivating. But, to say something like this, you MUST listen the whole thing.
    Alles Vergängliche ist nur ein Gleichnis;
    das Unzulängliche, hier wird's Ereignis;
    das Unbeschreibliche, hier ist's getan;
    das Ewig-Weibliche zieht uns hinan.

  12. #24
    Senior Member tdc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stomanek View Post
    Rach sy I tried the 1st mvt test and didnt like. I was forced at a concert to sit through all of rach 2 and still didnt like. I think it's a fair strategy and I dont think I have missed much - if I have - I'll let it go. I prefer to listen to composers who pen a good 1st mvt
    Don't disregard Rach 3. His best symphony in my view and the first movement is great, this work is quite different in character than the first 2 symphonies.

    As far as the OP my vote goes to Weber's Der Freischütz.
    Last edited by tdc; Nov-11-2018 at 03:24.

  13. #25
    Senior Member KenOC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tdc View Post
    ...As far as the OP my vote goes to Weber's Der Freischütz.
    Beethoven liked it too. "The little man, otherwise so gentle -- I never would have credited him with such a thing. Now Weber must write operas in earnest, one after the other, without caring too much for refinement! Kaspar, the monster, looms up like a house; wherever the devil sticks in his claw we feel it." (To Rochlitz, at Baden, in the summer of 1823)


  14. #26
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    Beethoven's period overflowed with great music from other composers. Many of my favorites were written circa 1800-25 including:

    Franz Josef Haydn Harmonie mass (1802)
    Haydn Battle of the Nile (unsure when he wrote it; the battle itself occurred 1798) -- a cantata akin to his Nelson mass.

    Johann Nepomuk Hummel Octet-Partita in E flat (1803)
    His two wonderful Grand Serenades Opp. 63 and 66 came along 1828

    Franz Krommer Octet-Partitas Opp. 79, 69, 57 and 78 (1802)
    Krommer Clarinet Concerto in E (1803)
    Krommer Octet-Partitas Opp. 73, 76 (1809)

    Jan Ladislav Dussek Piano Sonatas Op. 45 (1800) Op. 35-2 (1806)

    Gioachino Rossini Flute Quartets (1804)
    Rossini Messe di Gloria (1820)

    Luigi Cherubini Requiem in C minor, which Beethoven requested by played at his funeral, came along 1817. His wonderful In Paradisum, often linked on recordings of the requiem, was written 1807.

    No compositions dates are listed for Johann Triebensee's wonderful Concertino in E flat major for Cembalo, Wind Octet and Double Bass and his harmoniemusik from Mozart's Don Giovanni but they were certainly written during the period.

    I couldn't find a composition date for Josef Fiala's Divertimento in D Sharp; it too was during the period.

    Another wonderful piece I just learned, Francois Boieldieu's Concerto for Harp and Orchestra in C, came just before in 1795.
    Last edited by larold; Nov-13-2018 at 17:34.

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  16. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by larold View Post
    ...Another wonderful piece I just learned, Francois Boieldieu's Concerto for Harp and Orchestra in C, came just before in 1795.
    There’s also his Piano Concerto. Not sure of the date, but likely not too far from the Harp Concerto. He lived from 1775-1834. His most well known work was the opera La Dame Blanche (1825), rarely performed or recorded theses days.

    Last edited by DaveM; Nov-13-2018 at 22:19.

  17. #28
    Senior Member tdc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by larold View Post
    Beethoven's period overflowed with great music from other composers. Many of my favorites were written circa 1800-25 including:

    Franz Josef Haydn Harmonie mass (1802)
    Haydn Battle of the Nile (unsure when he wrote it; the battle itself occurred 1798) -- a cantata akin to his Nelson mass.

    Johann Nepomuk Hummel Octet-Partita in E flat (1803)
    His two wonderful Grand Serenades Opp. 63 and 66 came along 1828

    Franz Krommer Octet-Partitas Opp. 79, 69, 57 and 78 (1802)
    Krommer Clarinet Concerto in E (1803)
    Krommer Octet-Partitas Opp. 73, 76 (1809)

    Jan Ladislav Dussek Piano Sonatas Op. 45 (1800) Op. 35-2 (1806)

    Gioachino Rossini Flute Quartets (1804)
    Rossini Messe di Gloria (1820)

    Luigi Cherubini Requiem in C minor, which Beethoven requested by played at his funeral, came along 1817. His wonderful In Paradisum, often linked on recordings of the requiem, was written 1807.

    No compositions dates are listed for Johann Triebensee's wonderful Concertino in E flat major for Cembalo, Wind Octet and Double Bass and his harmoniemusik from Mozart's Don Giovanni but they were certainly written during the period.

    I couldn't find a composition date for Josef Fiala's Divertimento in D Sharp; it too was during the period.

    Another wonderful piece I just learned, Francois Boieldieu's Concerto for Harp and Orchestra in C, came just before in 1795.
    Perhaps 'good' is a better adjective for much of the music on this list rather than 'great'?

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