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Thread: Late Mozart vs. Late Schubert

  1. #241
    Senior Member hammeredklavier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allerius View Post
    I ask you that you kindly do not remove content from the phrases you quote from me in a next time. I said that in my opinion there's an overuse of repeats in the Classical period, a relative, not absolute, statement.
    I saw fit to remove the "in my opinion" phrase in your sentence because this is something we can discuss objectively. It didn't matter to me if you said "in my opinon" in that sentence or not, in that particular case. We're not talking about subjective concepts like "emotional depth" for example.

    Quote Originally Posted by Allerius View Post
    This can be corrobored by the fact that a good deal of my listening experience of the period is focused in instrumental pieces (don't tell me to forget the Mozart symphonies and chamber music, please), .
    That's not good enough for an excuse. So in Chopin, if I only listen to stuff like Grande Valse Brillante Op.18, or Scherzo in B flat minor Op.31, can I say Chopin is too full of "repeats"? (Not "repetitions"). But I know people like you would object by saying: "Are you kidding me? Whatabout the Ballades?", right?
    So I'm telling you: "Are you kidding me? Whatabout Mozart's operas, concertos, liturgical works?"
    You've often discussed the subject of Bach vs Mozart vs Beethoven in the many threads and posts and you even talked about "variety" in them as if you know and listen to all they wrote on regular basis. And I have discussed the merit of the Mozart works in many threads now. (Don't tell me you never saw any one of them, please. )
    Now you're telling me, with Mozart, you only know and listen to his instrumental pieces? Ok.. Then with Chopin, if I only know and listen to Grande Valse Brillante Op.18, Scherzo in B flat minor Op.31, Mazurka Op.33 No.2 in D major, would you allow me to say "Chopin is too full of repeats, in my humble opinion"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Allerius View Post
    that tend to have repeat signs due to formal aspects, and that I find it a bit tiresome to keep removing some of them. I don't have problems with repeats overall, but I have my own ideas of when I want to listen to them and when not, and usually I don't want to listen to entire development sections plus recapitulations twice, something that happens somewhat frequently (in relative terms) in the Classical period of Mozart (his symphonies with Levine were the examples I cited on this thread) but not in the romanticism of, say, Chopin, a composer whose music for piano I admire for example because of what I perceive as a fluency in form. Hence the criticism. Relative to my perspective, and I stress this because it's important to me.
    Perhaps, but many conductors tend to perform them, so I think that it could be argued that these repeats may be mandatory to be performed at least in their perspective. Could you provide me some reliable source (something from some authority of our century, not from some long dead composer, please) that enforces this idea of yours of "skipping repeat signs whenever one feels like it" as the correct way of listening to the music of the 18th century?
    By saying "maybe you're listening in the wrong way," I'm not trying to impose my way of listening on you. I'm simply suggesting. I'm saying maybe you shouldn't feel so obligated to listen from start to finish for every piece.
    For pieces that I already know, I rarely listen to them in full from start to finish (unless I'm attending a concert). Have you ever had urge to listen to, just one movement, or just a section of a movement? In fact I do all the time. There are different parts of Beethoven Grosse Fuge (for example) that I want to listen to at different times.
    You sound so frustrated with your own listening habits with 18th century music, so I'm only suggesting a different way. Or shouldn't you only listen to recordings that don't repeat development-recapitulation?



    And in addition to the description by EdwardBast, I would like to add that, the precursor to the symphony was the Italian overture. From what I understand, people at the time played best hit overtures from operas as encores, so eventually they became standalone works, and that's how the symphony came into being. Initially, they were like JC Bach, CPE Bach, Myslivecek's symphonies.
    And so, there are overture-like symphonies in Mozart that don't have repeat signs in them and the movements are "connected" by transitions. 23rd, 26th symphonies, for example. Yes, these are early/lesser works of his not many people listen to, but the 23rd was the first piece that sparked interest in me of Mozart long ago. (I find 21th also memorable. There was something that made him special from the galant style composers of his time.)



    Quote Originally Posted by Allerius View Post
    I hope that you're not including me in this, for I never said that.
    I hate to say, but sometimes you sound "a bit" like them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Allerius View Post
    Thank you for posting these beautiful Chopin pieces! Such a master of the piano. I bet that Mozart would have respected his music, very advanced for his time in terms of harmony, melody, rhythms and even counterpoint (according to Rosen), had they ever met.
    I wasn't really talking about the quality of the Chopin pieces.
    Last edited by hammeredklavier; Dec-04-2019 at 12:41.

  2. #242
    Senior Member Allerius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hammeredklavier View Post
    I saw fit to remove the "in my opinion" phrase in your sentence because this is something we can discuss objectively. It didn't matter to me if you said "in my opinon" in that sentence or not, in that particular case. We're not talking about subjective concepts like "emotional depth" for example.
    I don't think that we can discuss in absolute terms something that is based in a particular person's way of listening. I don't want to generalize some of my assumptions as if they were a truth for everybody else.

    Quote Originally Posted by hammeredklavier View Post
    That's not good enough for an excuse. So in Chopin, if I only listen to stuff like Grande Valse Brillante Op.18, or Scherzo in B flat minor Op.31, can I say Chopin is too full of "repeats"? (Not "repetitions"). But I know people like you would object by saying: "Are you kidding me? Whatabout the Ballades?", right?
    So I'm telling you: "Are you kidding me? Whatabout Mozart's operas, concertos, liturgical works?"
    Chopin tend to not repeat large sections of music like Mozart in his development/recapitulation repeats. To my ears his repeats do not compromise the flowing of the music, what to me seems to sometimes be the case with the composer of the Haffner symphony.

    Quote Originally Posted by hammeredklavier View Post
    You've often discussed the subject of Bach vs Mozart vs Beethoven in the many threads and posts and you even talked about "variety" in them as if you know and listen to all they wrote on regular basis. And I have discussed the merit of the Mozart works in many threads now. (Don't tell me you never saw any one of them, please. )
    Now you're telling me, with Mozart, you only know and listen to his instrumental pieces? Ok.. Then with Chopin, if I only know and listen to Grande Valse Brillante Op.18, Scherzo in B flat minor Op.31, Mazurka Op.33 No.2 in D major, would you allow me to say "Chopin is too full of repeats, in my humble opinion"?
    Whatever. I didn't say that I "only know and listen to his instrumental pieces". I said that they are the focus of my listening experience, this is, I listen more to them. And when you see Chopin sistematically repeating very long sections of music without any purpose other than to fill in some aesthetic formula you come here saying that he is full of repeats.

    Quote Originally Posted by hammeredklavier View Post
    By saying "maybe you're listening in the wrong way," I'm not trying to impose my way of listening on you. I'm simply suggesting. I'm saying maybe you shouldn't feel so obligated to listen from start to finish for every piece.
    I don't, and if you've read my other posts on this thread you already realized this. But I'm still curious to know what basis you have to assume that listening to all the repeats in the 18th century music is absolutely the "wrong way" of doing so, for some other people may prefer this way.

    Quote Originally Posted by hammeredklavier View Post
    But you know that nowhere in that random post you quoted from me here I said that Mozart and Haydn only composed piano sonatas, symphonies and string quartets, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by hammeredklavier View Post
    I wasn't really talking about the quality of the Chopin pieces.
    Oh, really? How so? It's known that you love his music and would never, never want to annoyingly keep trashing it...
    Last edited by Allerius; Dec-05-2019 at 01:09. Reason: To correct grammatical mistakes.
    “To do good whenever one can, to love liberty above all else, never to deny the truth, even though it be before the throne.” - Ludwig van Beethoven.

  3. #243
    Senior Member hammeredklavier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allerius View Post
    Chopin tend to not repeat large sections of music like Mozart in his development/recapitulation repeats. To my ears his repeats do not compromise the flowing of the music, what to me seems to sometimes be the case with the composer of the Haffner symphony.
    With all due respect, I'm still not sure why you're making such a big issue out of it, to be honest.






    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xm7tLFiqpYc (Bernstein)

    Quote Originally Posted by Allerius View Post
    annoyingly keep trashing it...
    I apologize if you find it annoying. But there have been many attempts at TC to elevate Schubert to the status of greatest composer and Chopin to the greatest innovator.

    What is the greatest string quintet?
    Best harmonist among the Romantics?
    Mozart or Chopin: Piano Works

    Quote Originally Posted by Jacck View Post
    I would place Schubert very high of my list of best composers (in the top 10).
    Quote Originally Posted by Jacck View Post
    most overrated are Beethoven and Mozart
    Quote Originally Posted by Larkenfield View Post
    (Chopin was also called ”the greatest harmonist since Bach” by one of his biographers, James Huneker, and I couldn’t agree more. Chopin was as exacting and disciplined as Bach.
    Quote Originally Posted by Partita View Post
    Bach just made more of as dog’s breakfast of the whole thing, by over-extending it to a quite ludicrous length.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bulldog View Post
    There you go. Pump up the Schubert mass by disparaging Bach's.
    ---------------------------------------------

    Quote Originally Posted by Allerius View Post
    And when you see Chopin sistematically repeating very long sections of music without any purpose other than to fill in some aesthetic formula you come here saying that he is full of repeats.
    I'm not sure if we're talking about the same thing regarding "fluency in form". But stuff like Chopin Op.44, Op.53 strikes me as being static and clumsy. I'm curious why Luchesi always likes to talk about how Chopin is better than Mozart (and Haydn), but refuses to comment how Rachmaninoff Prelude in G minor Op.23 No.5 is better than this.

    3:00~5:00

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehm_kDU563Q&t=3m
    Last edited by hammeredklavier; Dec-06-2019 at 09:41.

  4. #244
    Senior Member EdwardBast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hammeredklavier View Post
    I saw fit to remove the "in my opinion" phrase in your sentence because this is something we can discuss objectively. It didn't matter to me if you said "in my opinon" in that sentence or not, in that particular case. We're not talking about subjective concepts like "emotional depth" for example.
    Allerius is right in requesting that you quote him accurately. What you did was improper by any standard of writing and public discourse. When omitting part of another person's sentence, a practice only acceptable when the omission doesn't change the writer's meaning or intent, one uses ellipses to indicate the omission. In this case, there was no excuse for omitting his words, since the omission materially changes the rhetorical sense of his statement.
    Last edited by EdwardBast; Dec-05-2019 at 23:41.

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  6. #245
    Senior Member Luchesi's Avatar
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    Mozart or Schubert, whose music will be of most interest in 100 years?

    About the same? with the new listening environments that are coming?

    I'd like to 'experience' their works in chronological order because I've been fascinated by how each new, important work subtly transcends earlier ones (but I would be one of the minority 100 years from now I expect).
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes - but the preservation of fire!
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  7. #246
    Senior Member hammeredklavier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EdwardBast View Post
    Allerius is right in requesting that you quote him accurately. What you did was improper by any standard of writing and public discourse. When omitting part of another person's sentence, a practice only acceptable when the omission doesn't change the writer's meaning or intent, one uses ellipses to indicate the omission. In this case, there was no excuse for omitting his words, since the omission materially changes the rhetorical sense of his statement.
    You're right, but that was the whole point. It was my way of provocatively saying: "hey dude, "in my opinion" is not a free ticket that enables you say whatever you want at any situation. "
    I think it's a phrase that, the more you abuse, the less chances people will take you seriously. It's not exactly the same thing as expression of uncertainty "it seems to me that probably.." either.
    Last edited by hammeredklavier; Dec-06-2019 at 09:44.

  8. #247
    Senior Member Allerius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hammeredklavier View Post
    You're right, but that was the whole point. It was my way of provocatively saying: "hey dude, "in my opinion" is not a free ticket that enables you say whatever you want at any situation. "
    I think it's a phrase that, the more you abuse, the less chances people will take you seriously. It's not exactly the same thing as expression of uncertainty "it seems to me that probably.." either.
    All right "dude", but I'm not abusing it as you say. Classical era composers such as Mozart tend to use repeat signals relatively often in intrumental forms when compared to composers of the other eras, but if this makes their music repetitive or not is a matter of opinion. Some may think that the repeats are a necessity due to the to ideals of formal balance and proportions inherent to that era, and that all of them must be played, while others may believe that there's an overuse of them and that some of them should be omitted. Yet others may have other opinions.

    Opinions aren't necessarily a conclusive truth, they can change with time, and are typical of a person. If I came here and just said "Mozart is repetitive", as if this was an universal fact, I think that this wouldn't be taken seriously, because the notion of "repetitiveness" can vary according to the individual. I understand that a difficulty in talking about music is that the values that each person attributes to the many characteristics that it can assume can vary a lot. What is "passionate" for one can be "sentimental" to the other, what is "delightfully complex" to one can be "overproduced" to others, etc. And what is "repetitive" to some may be "formally perfect" to others. That's why I avoid not using the "in my opinion" or it's synonyms in talkings here.
    Last edited by Allerius; Dec-07-2019 at 21:46.
    “To do good whenever one can, to love liberty above all else, never to deny the truth, even though it be before the throne.” - Ludwig van Beethoven.

  9. #248
    Senior Member hammeredklavier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allerius View Post
    Opinions aren't necessarily a conclusive truth, they can change with time, and are typical of a person. If I came here and just said "Mozart is repetitive", as if this was an universal fact, I think that this wouldn't be taken seriously, because the notion of "repetitiveness" can vary according to the individual.
    I see, but people sometimes have opinions that are shortsighted, misguided, or biased. I understand that, with Mozart, you're only interested in listening to the instrumental works, but note that you didn't just say "instrumental works", you said "music" as if all of Mozart's music is like the kind you described.

    Quote Originally Posted by Allerius View Post
    In my humble opinion there's an overuse of the repeat signs in the Classical period (I have no problem with non-exact repeats). Here I include the music of Schubert, but also that of Mozart.


    The point I was making, just because you don't listen to works like the operas and K65, K66, K109, K125, K139, K167, K192, K193, K194, K195, K220, K243, K257, K258, K259, K262, K275, K317, K321, K337, K339, K341, K427, K626, it doesn't mean they don't exist.

    Missa brevis in B flat K275:
    https://youtu.be/JmsH1kRfl3g?t=170
    https://youtu.be/JmsH1kRfl3g?t=339
    https://youtu.be/JmsH1kRfl3g?t=452
    https://youtu.be/JmsH1kRfl3g?t=794

    Missa brevis in F K192:
    https://youtu.be/QprTvKApc8c?t=311
    https://youtu.be/QprTvKApc8c?t=515
    https://youtu.be/QprTvKApc8c?t=612
    https://youtu.be/QprTvKApc8c?t=1062

    Also these movements don't have repeat signs written on the score in their development-recapitulation sections.



    Last edited by hammeredklavier; Dec-11-2019 at 22:25.

  10. #249
    Senior Member Allerius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hammeredklavier View Post
    I see, but people sometimes have opinions that are shortsighted, misguided, or biased.
    Exactly. That's why I recommend you to stop bashing composers just because you don't like them.

    Quote Originally Posted by hammeredklavier View Post
    I understand that, with Mozart, you're only interested in listening to the instrumental works, but note that you didn't just say "instrumental works", you said "music" as if all of Mozart's music is like the kind you described.
    You understand wrong. I've already said in a previous post that I don't listen only to Mozart's instrumental works, although I focus my listening on them.

    Quote Originally Posted by hammeredklavier View Post
    The point I was making, just because you don't listen to works like the operas and K65, K66, K109, K125, K139, K167, K192, K193, K194, K195, K220, K243, K257, K258, K259, K262, K275, K317, K321, K337, K339, K341, K427, K626, it doesn't mean they don't exist.
    Yes, but it doesn't mean that the symphonies, quartets, quintets, sonatas, divertimenti and serenades don't exist either. My point is that to me Classical period music sounds a bit repetitive sometimes due to what I think is an overuse of repeat signs in some forms.
    “To do good whenever one can, to love liberty above all else, never to deny the truth, even though it be before the throne.” - Ludwig van Beethoven.

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