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Thread: What represents the peak of Mozart's works to you?

  1. #181
    Senior Member Allegro Con Brio's Avatar
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    ^If I recall correctly Mozart considered the Quintet for Piano and Winds the greatest thing he had written up to that point. A lovely work it is; I tend to prefer Wolfie’s chamber music above all his other genres.
    "If we understood the world, we would realize that there is a logic of harmony underlying its manifold apparent dissonances." - Jean Sibelius

    "Art, like morality, consists of drawing the line somewhere." - G.K. Chesterton

    "Beethoven tells you what it’s like to be Beethoven and Mozart tells you what it’s like to be human. Bach tells you what it’s like to be the universe." - Douglas Adams

  2. #182
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    The Da Ponte operas.

  3. #183
    Senior Member hammeredklavier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by consuono View Post
    But they're very good for students in learning how to play with clarity and precision, no question. And also in learning how sonata form works. I suspect that's what their original purpose was anyway.
    You know, you could say these things about Haydn and Beethoven sonatas too. tdc and I explained to you many times already. And Mozart gets far more away from mere "scales and arpeggios" in K.533, K.576.


    Haydn and Schubert weren't virtuoso keyboardists, their keyboard writing wasn't any more efficient than Mozart and Clementi.

    [ 6:00 ], or leaps in the final movement:

    thirds and sixths in K.394:


    Stop telling me other composers are somehow different regarding this issue. I'm not particularly impressed by the the "incomplete contrapuntal exercise" inserted in the ending of sonata in A flat Op.110, for example. It's not some kind of "a work of divine, cosmic expression that we must treat differently". The same way Hummel sonata in F sharp minor Op.81 (1819) is not.

    An étude (/ˈeɪtjuːd/; French: [e.tyd], meaning 'study') is an instrumental musical composition, usually short, of considerable difficulty, and designed to provide practice material for perfecting a particular musical skill.

    The modern German spelling for the collection is Das wohltemperierte Klavier (WTK; German pronunciation: [das ˌvoːlˌtɛmpəˈʁiːɐ̯tə klaˈviːɐ̯]). Bach gave the title Das Wohltemperirte Clavier to a book of preludes and fugues in all 24 major and minor keys, dated 1722, composed "for the profit and use of musical youth desirous of learning, and especially for the pastime of those already skilled in this study"


    Chopin Nocturnes, which you described as being a greater artistic achievement than Wagner's Ring cycle (the "ugly quarter-hours"), were mostly written for Chopin's own amateur piano students, many of whom were 'countesses' such as Delfina Potocka, and daughters of wealthy families, such as Charlotte de Rothschild. Because in those days, girls and women of "cultured" families were encouraged to play that sort of music in their drawing rooms to create intimate atmosphere.


    also, see Charles Mayer
    Last edited by hammeredklavier; Jun-03-2020 at 13:36.

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  5. #184
    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    Symphonies 39, 40, & 41.

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  7. #185
    Senior Member consuono's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hammeredklavier View Post
    ...
    Haydn and Schubert weren't virtuoso keyboardists, their keyboard writing wasn't any more efficient than Mozart and Clementi.
    It may not be more "efficient", but in my opinion it's greater music. "Efficient"??

    Chopin Nocturnes, which you described as being a greater artistic achievement than Wagner's Ring cycle (the "ugly quarter-hours"), were mostly written for Chopin's own amateur piano students, many of whom were 'countesses' such as Delfina Potocka, and daughters of wealthy families, such as Charlotte de Rothschild. Because in those days, girls and women of "cultured" families were encouraged to play that sort of music in their drawing rooms to create intimate atmosphere.
    Yes, and I do agree that Bach and Chopin were more successful at making pedagogical pieces into great music than Mozart was.

  8. #186
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    The 40th symphony - wow.

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  10. #187
    Senior Member hammeredklavier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by consuono View Post
    Yes, and I do agree that Bach and Chopin were more successful at making pedagogical pieces into great music than Mozart was.
    I think they're just different from Mozart. For one thing, Bach didn't write sonatas for four hands, Chopin didn't write fantasies for organ. Why do you always feel the need to keep following me along, demanding me to admit [some composer]'s [certain works] are "not good". (which I already did) And how many times do you have to repeat it? (You said it's your "blind spot", and I get it.) Are you getting "sadistic pleasure" from it? I usually don't go into threads about certain composers or their works to express my negative opinions about them for apparent no reason (unless I'm defending another composer). Maybe you're the one insecure about the general quality of your favorite composers' output (whoever they are) compared to Mozart's? Perhaps that explains your obsession to establish "Mozart's sonatas are poorly-written" as a fact? Ask yourself what's the point of listening to classical music. Isn't it just for our enjoyment? And not necessarily "ranking things" in it?

    Quote Originally Posted by consuono View Post
    It's a stupid game.
    Indeed, it is.
    Last edited by hammeredklavier; Jun-03-2020 at 13:55.

  11. #188
    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hammeredklavier View Post
    I think they're just different from Mozart. For one thing, Bach didn't write sonatas for four hands, Chopin didn't write fantasies for organ. Why do you always feel the need to keep following me along, demanding me to admit [some composer]'s [certain works] are "not good". (which I already did) And how many times do you have to repeat it? (You said it's your "blind spot", and I get it.) Are you getting "sadistic pleasure" from it? I usually don't go into threads about certain composers or their works to express my negative opinions about them for apparent no reason (unless I'm defending another composer). Maybe you're the one insecure about the general quality of your favorite composers' output (whoever they are) compared to Mozart's? Perhaps that explains your obsession to establish "Mozart's sonatas are poorly-written" as a fact? Ask yourself what's the point of listening to classical music. Isn't it just for our enjoyment? And not necessarily "ranking things" in it?
    Hey Hammered, cool down! It's only the opinion of some guy on the internet in his underwear!

  12. #189
    Senior Member trazom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by consuono View Post
    But they're very good for students in learning how to play with clarity and precision, no question. And also in learning how sonata form works. I suspect that's what their original purpose was anyway.
    Most were written to sell to amateur pianists and the ones that weren't, like k.333, were for Mozart's own personal use. Sonata form wasn't codified as a thing to examine and learn from until the 19th century.

  13. #190
    Senior Member consuono's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by trazom View Post
    ...Sonata form wasn't codified as a thing to examine and learn from until the 19th century.
    Sorry, but that's hogwash.

  14. #191
    Senior Member trazom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by consuono View Post
    Sorry, but that's hogwash.
    Now there's a cogent and compelling counterargument...

  15. #192
    Senior Member consuono's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millionrainbows View Post
    Hey Hammered, cool down! It's only the opinion of some guy on the internet in his underwear!
    Says the guy on the Internet in his underwear to his buds on the Internet in their underwear.

  16. #193
    Senior Member consuono's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by trazom View Post
    Now there's a cogent and compelling counterargument...
    And unlike yours, factual.

  17. #194
    Senior Member trazom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by consuono View Post
    And unlike yours, factual.
    Sorry, but asserting things over and over without any proof is not a valid argument. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argument_by_assertion


    The definition of sonata form in terms of musical elements sits uneasily between two historical eras. Although the late 18th century witnessed the most exemplary achievements in the form, above all from Joseph Haydn and Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, compositional theory of the time did not use the term "sonata form". Perhaps the most extensive contemporary description of the sonata-form type of movement may have been given by the theorist Heinrich Christoph Koch in 1793: like earlier German theorists and unlike many of the descriptions of the form we are used to today, he defined it in terms of the movement's plan of modulation and principal cadences, without saying a great deal about the treatment of themes. Seen in this way, sonata form was closest to binary form, out of which it probably developed.[6]

    The model of the form that is often taught currently tends to be more thematically differentiated. It was originally promulgated by Anton Reicha in Traité de haute composition musicale in 1826, by Adolf Bernhard Marx in Die Lehre von der musikalischen Komposition in 1845, and by Carl Czerny in 1848. Marx may be the originator of the term "sonata form". This model was derived from study and criticism of Beethoven's piano sonatas.

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  19. #195
    Senior Member consuono's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hammeredklavier
    Why do you always feel the need to keep following me along
    By the way I'm not following you anywhere. I reply to your comments directed to me. Why do you have to go around here continually sniffing for mentions of the name Mozart?

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