View Poll Results: Most perfectionist composer

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  • Brahms

    32 50.00%
  • Webern

    5 7.81%
  • Ravel

    14 21.88%
  • Chopin

    3 4.69%
  • Mahler

    2 3.13%
  • Scriabin

    1 1.56%
  • Berg

    1 1.56%
  • Others

    6 9.38%
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Thread: Most perfectionist composer

  1. #31
    Senior Member hammeredklavier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Littlephrase1913 View Post
    He’s referring to Chopin, but it is implied the same thing applies for Schubert. In his mind, both are untalented amateurs who deserve no more recognition than a Hummel or a Spohr.
    Yes, I'm referring to Chopin. Both Schubert and Chopin are indeed geniuses, but I find the titles attributed to Chopin "greatest for the piano", "greatest harmonist since Bach" Great melodists? often extreme. Chopin could be called the greatest piano methodist. However, there's no way he wrote the greatest keyboard music, let alone piano music, his Etudes don't even come close to Bach WTC. Even the Waltzes, Except the few (Op.18, Op.34 No.1, Op.42 that are written with as much musical content as Johann Strauss II Waltzes, the rest are 'A' - 'B' - 'A' s, quite literally. This is the case with most of his 60+ Mazurkas, along with dozens of songs that written in the similar format, they combine to make up half his output. How can we consider him a perfectionist like Ravel. That's what I meant, Chopin isn't that much more a perfectionist than Schubert. Chopin still deserves his place in music history as a musical genius - but again, there's idolatry about him other people find disturbing.

    I often see more attempts to attribute "creator of a whole new language" to Chopin (and maybe Debussy) than most other famous composers. Usually by people who say things like 'classical era masters lacked ingenuity and creative thinking skills'.
    Field Romance in E flat: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnABElCZNeU
    Chopin Nocturne in E flat: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9E6b3swbnWg
    Hummel piano concerto A minor: https://youtu.be/iYr7z1RYgaM?t=231

    Quote Originally Posted by Larkenfield View Post
    The chance of mistaking Brahms for Tchaikovsky, or Liszt or Schumann for Chopin, was far less likely to happen because these composers were more interested in conforming to their own ideals than the Classicists were in conforming to the ideals of Greece and Rome, which had inspired Classicism in the first place, despite the great contributions of Haydn and Mozart. Unless this can be fully appreciated and understood, the dyed-in-the-wool Classicists have about as much insight into the Romantics as fingernails on a chalkboard. The Romantics represented the expanded imagination that was freed after the Classicism of Haydn and Mozart had run its course and the world had dramatically changed... They no longer had to genuflect before royalty and the aristocracy in order to survive, and inspiration could far more dictate form. That was necessary for the overall emotional expression and freedom in music. That expanded freedom overall was considered a contribution to composition, a plus, not a debility.
    https://youtu.be/4rOOLm3n6GY?t=14
    "" this is the unmistakable sound of Frederic Chopin ""

  2. #32
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    Perfectionist in the sense of fastidious: Debussy, Ravel. Dutilleux was said to be so perfectionist that he would only publish of handful of works, all of them masterful. Boulez was the epitome of this school: he was a perfectionist to the point of continuously revisiting and reformulating works. This french, impressionist kind of perfection is that of the seasoned artisan. It is a perfection of tasteful decoration, of exquisite perfumes, of hazy natural landscapes. This is different from the austrian geometrical perfection of the likes of Schoenberg, and especially Webern. This second perfection is that of compressed lyrical beauty, economy of means, mathematical astuteness, density. It means investing each note with a sense of absolute necessity. A fullness of relations.
    Last edited by Alonso; Feb-19-2019 at 04:31.

  3. #33
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    Brahms. If it wasn't up to scratch, it was destroyed.
    Beethoven wrote tub-thumping rubbish and had it published; what perfectionist would have written Wellington?
    Most composers have written all kinds of second rate stuff.
    Brahms may have had a (very) few 'immature' works, but there's nothing second-rate about anything he wrote.
    And he still got to Op 120+.
    Graeme

  4. Likes BrahmsWasAGreatMelodist, Ned Low liked this post
  5. #34
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    No one's mentioned Durufle yet. Quite the perfectionist... my vote still goes to Brahms though. Ravel would be my second choice.
    Casual composer, pianist, music enthusiast

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  7. #35
    Senior Member amfortas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Littlephrase1913 View Post
    He’s referring to Chopin, but it is implied the same thing applies for Schubert. In his mind, both are untalented amateurs who deserve no more recognition than a Hummel or a Spohr.
    I kind of like Hummel and Spohr.
    Last edited by amfortas; Mar-18-2019 at 20:17.
    Alan

  8. #36
    Senior Member Ethereality's Avatar
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    Brahms by 90 light-years. You can just hear it in his decisions. Weary, can't say greatest.
    Last edited by Ethereality; Mar-06-2021 at 08:55.

  9. #37
    Senior Member ArtMusic's Avatar
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    Brahms was the most perfectionist, although I do think it is not always best for his music especially when it came to the large scale works.
    "You must have no dependence on your own genius. If you have great talents, industry will improve them; if you have but moderate abilities, industry will supply their deficiency." Sir Joshua Reynolds, PRA, FRS, FRSA (1723 - 1792)

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  11. #38
    Senior Member Ethereality's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArtMusic View Post
    Brahms was the most perfectionist, although I do think it is not always best for his music especially when it came to the large scale works.
    Then again, you can argue he made an ultimatum.

  12. #39
    Senior Member elgars ghost's Avatar
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    I'd second whoever it was who suggested Boulez as he thought his compositions are never absolutely finished - Boulez didn't so much revise some of his works as keep them in a perpetually evolving state.

    I do think Webern should be included - listening to his music gives the impression that he had to really wrench it out of himself. I like the Brahms story and there was a similar one about Webern - allegedly during the course of a day the only progress he made on one of his scores was to put down a rest sign.

    Varèse might be another candidate - instigating a kind of 'year zero' policy after all of his output apart from one song was lost and then providing less than three hours of new music during the last 47 years of his life. He never seemed to work on more than one piece at a time, either.
    Last edited by elgars ghost; Mar-06-2021 at 13:08.
    '...a violator of his word, a libertine over head and ears in debt and disgrace, a despiser of domestic ties, the companion of gamblers and demireps, a man who has just closed half a century without a single claim on the gratitude of his country or the respect of posterity...' - Leigh Hunt on the Prince Regent (later George IV).

    ὃν οἱ θεοὶ φιλοῦσιν ἀποθνῄσκει νέος [Those whom the gods love die young] - Menander

  13. #40
    Senior Member Phil loves classical's Avatar
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    I feel Brahms to be kind of rough, chunky or grinding at times, but can hear much as meticulously crafted. I feel Britten to be silky smooth, even though it's not always interesting to me.

    Last edited by Phil loves classical; Mar-06-2021 at 16:05.
    "Forgive me, Majesty. I'm a vulgar man. But I assure you, my music is not.“ Mozart

  14. #41
    Senior Member hammeredklavier's Avatar
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    Versions and editions of Bruckner's symphonies
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Versio...27s_symphonies

    Symphony No. 1
    1865–66: Grandjean [1995]
    1866: Carragan [1998],
    1868: Thomas Röder [2014]
    1877/1884: Haas [1935], Nowak [1953]
    1891: Doblinger [1893], Brosche [1980]

    Symphony No. 2
    1872: Carragan [2005]
    1873: Carragan
    1876: Carragan
    1877: Haas [1938]3, Nowak [1965], Carragan [2007]
    1892: Doblinger [1892]

    Symphony No. 3
    1873: Nowak [1977]
    1874: Carragan
    1876: Nowak [1980], Carragan
    1877-1878: Oeser [1950], Nowak [1981]6
    1889: Rättig [1890], Nowak [1959]

    Symphony No. 4
    1874: Nowak [1975]
    1878: Haas [1936], Nowak [1981], Carragan
    1881 (aka 1878/1880): Haas [1936], Korstvedt [2019]
    1886 (aka 1878/1880): Nowak [1953]
    1888: Gutmann [1889], Korstvedt [2004]

    Symphony No. 5
    Doblinger [1896]10, Haas [1935], Nowak [1951]

    Symphony No. 6
    Doblinger [1899]11, Haas [1935], Nowak [1952]

    Symphony No. 7
    Gutmann [1885], Haas [1944], Nowak [1954]

    Symphony No. 8
    1887: Nowak [1972], Hawkshaw (2017)
    1890: Haas [1939]14, Nowak [1955]
    1892: Haslinger-Schlesinger-Lienau

    Symphony No. 9
    Doblinger [1903]15, Orel [1932], Nowak [1951], Cohrs [2000]
    Finale sketches: Orel [1934], Phillips [1994-2002]

  15. #42
    Senior Member mikeh375's Avatar
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    Britten had that rare combination of extraordinary technical facility allied to a distinctive musicality and invention. Add to that his fabulous orchestration, flawless inner ear, clear and crisp conducting and him being one of the finest pianists of his generation then you have something pretty perfect imv. The Concerto posted by Phil above is a fine example of the technical facility and emotional power of his voice.
    Last edited by mikeh375; Mar-06-2021 at 16:18.
    New website and some new music......www.mikehewer.com

  16. #43
    Senior Member SanAntone's Avatar
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    A composer not listed in the poll is Maurice Duruflé, but who was a perfectionist. He only published 14 works - only those he felt were up to his standards. I voted for Brahms, however.

  17. #44
    Senior Member Botschaft's Avatar
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    Brahms is the gold standard of music.

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  19. #45
    Senior Member Richannes Wrahms's Avatar
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    Webern is obviously the answer, other candidates are Boulez and Kurtag.

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