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Thread: Decoding Beethoven

  1. #121
    Senior Member Barbebleu's Avatar
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    1959?xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

    Aah, the joys of the time machine!
    Last edited by Barbebleu; May-24-2019 at 00:31.
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  2. #122
    Senior Member Woodduck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barbebleu View Post
    1959?xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

    Aah, the joys of the time machine!
    Thanks. I was wondering why there were no horses in the streets.
    Last edited by Woodduck; May-24-2019 at 00:33.

  3. #123
    Senior Member Phil loves classical's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larkenfield View Post
    I hear nothing suggestive of the whole tone scale in the Tristan chord, not when the melody is clearly chromatic and the ambiguity comes from that. The notes of the melody are treated as equal value (not as an appoggiatura) though not the same length. If Wagner wanted to suggest the whole tone scale the melody would certainly support that in some way, but it doesn’t.
    I also doubt Wagner intended the whole tone scale specifically, but I think it explains the function or effect of the chromaticism and movement well, as also in the bottom E, G# and D that comes after, rather than trying to relate to chord types and functions in traditional tonality. It is my own post-period analysis of how he achieves the sound that he does. I don't interpret the melody as having appoggiaturias or passing notes over those "chords", but more integrated as in equal emphasis in each of the melody notes.
    Last edited by Phil loves classical; May-24-2019 at 03:42.
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  4. #124
    Senior Member Woodduck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil loves classical View Post
    I also doubt Wagner intended the whole tone scale specifically, but I think it explains the function or effect of the chromaticism and movement well, as also in the bottom E, G# and D that comes after, rather than trying to relate to chord types and functions in traditional tonality. It is my own post-period analysis of how he achieves the sound that he does. I don't interpret the melody as having appoggiaturias or passing notes over those "chords", but more integrated as in equal emphasis in each of the melody notes.
    Where have you heard of anyone describing the top line as "passing notes over chords"?

  5. #125
    Senior Member Phil loves classical's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodduck View Post
    Where have you heard of anyone describing the top line as "passing notes over chords"?
    You mean melody as having passing notes over chords. I saw some interpretations suggesting the G# as an appoggiatura, some suggest the A is instead, and some as a passing note.
    Last edited by Phil loves classical; May-24-2019 at 12:40.
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  6. #126
    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    Just as I suggested in the Prokofiev/Russian thread, I think these are just "mechanisms" of voice-movement which fall outside the older tonal practices; as such, they are just chromatic movements of voices in which it becomes increasingly difficult and irrelevant to explain in 'proper' tonal terms. Wagner was doing it by "ear." If you can explain them tonally, fine, but I think it's rather like trying to stuff a horse into a...
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