Page 5 of 9 FirstFirst 123456789 LastLast
Results 61 to 75 of 121

Thread: Richard Wagner

  1. #61
    Banned
    Join Date
    Mar 2019
    Posts
    36
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Was Natalie Wood Jewish?

  2. Likes Klassik liked this post
  3. #62
    Senior Member DavidA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    12,240
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by StrangeHocusPocus View Post
    Was Natalie Wood Jewish?
    Natalie Wood was born Natalia Nikolaevna Zakharenko in San Francisco, California, the daughter of Russian immigrant parents

  4. #63
    Senior Member NLAdriaan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2019
    Posts
    235
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Woodduck View Post
    Don't underestimate Wagner as an original storyteller. The mythical and literary sources for the Ring present a hodgepodge of tales that required extreme selectivity, alteration and condensation to be made into a unified story. The main characters often bear little resemblance to their prototypes, and I would not characterize the tetralogy's structure as "maze-like." Parsifal is even more original in theme and structure, as a reading of Gottfied von Eschenbach's "Parzival" and Chretien de Troyes' "Perceval" will show, and the extraordinary character of Kundry is entirely Wagner's own creation. Parsifal is extremely concentrated dramatically, as far from maze-like as it could be. Wagner typically wastes no time, in this or other works, on irrelevant adventures; in Tristan almost nothing actually happens, with the emotions of the characters completely dominating the action.

    Add to the inventiveness and economy of these works the psychological and philosophical concepts they express, and it becomes apparent that Wagner was an original storyteller and dramatist who, as a creator of modern myths, really did "do it first."
    Thx for this insightful post!

    It sure required a huge effort to play around (in a positive meaning) with these old tales and to retell them, as Wagner did. But I still think that Wagner as a narrator doesn't reach the level of Wagner as a composer. The German tradition of storytelling and poetry has given us groundbreaking alternatives by the likes of Goethe, Morike and Eichendorff, all of which have been put to music to add even more artistic value to the words. Hugo Wolf in cooperation with one of these gentlemen, delivers far better economics then Wagner in transferring deep stories and emotions to us listeners: 2 musicians and 5 minutes max.

    And how about Monteverdi as a first composer to truly transfer emotions through music, in L'Orfeo for instance.

    But don't get me wrong. Wagner carries you into his story in an unprecedented manner. It could well be that the huge length and overwhelming musical forces leave no other option as to surrender to the relatively few words that are sung, words that merely highlight the music. Had Wagner used more words, no lead singer would survive it. All in all, economics do not directly come to mind when thinking about Wagner.

  5. #64
    Senior Member Eva Yojimbo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    561
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Clouds Weep Snowflakes View Post
    Anyone into his operas?
    No. I'm pretty sure nobody's heard of the guy. Is he any relation to Robert Wagner?

  6. #65
    Senior Member Woodduck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    12,588
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by NLAdriaan View Post
    Thx for this insightful post!

    It sure required a huge effort to play around (in a positive meaning) with these old tales and to retell them, as Wagner did. But I still think that Wagner as a narrator doesn't reach the level of Wagner as a composer. The German tradition of storytelling and poetry has given us groundbreaking alternatives by the likes of Goethe, Morike and Eichendorff, all of which have been put to music to add even more artistic value to the words. Hugo Wolf in cooperation with one of these gentlemen, delivers far better economics then Wagner in transferring deep stories and emotions to us listeners: 2 musicians and 5 minutes max.

    And how about Monteverdi as a first composer to truly transfer emotions through music, in L'Orfeo for instance.

    But don't get me wrong. Wagner carries you into his story in an unprecedented manner. It could well be that the huge length and overwhelming musical forces leave no other option as to surrender to the relatively few words that are sung, words that merely highlight the music. Had Wagner used more words, no lead singer would survive it. All in all, economics do not directly come to mind when thinking about Wagner.
    Opera and song are very different mediums, so I see no point in comparing Wagner with Hugo Wolf and Goethe. What opera composer or librettist is ever subjected to such comparisons? There's no doubt that Wagner as a composer is superior to Wagner as a poet, but that isn't intrinsically any sort problem, since an opera libretto is not primarily a literary product but a vehicle for musical expression. Purely literary value is nice (when we can notice it at all, which more often than not we can't and shouldn't), but good composers know that their art is what gives an opera its pace and power and that the words should be tailored to maximize the music's dramatic potential. I would note that different styles of dramatic music deal with this issue in different ways. in 18th-century opera, for example, the use of recitative to carry the action allows for a greater density of purely verbal expression and the presence of literary values approaching that of spoken drama; Mozart could set the clever, chatty librettos of Da Ponte in rapid-fire recitative, but librettos of that sort would have been of no use to Wagner.

    It's been my observation that some recent opera composers have failed miserably to find the proper balance between words and music, and nothing is more awkward than a clueless composer presuming to set verbatim excessively talky or flowery texts which won't allow music its own prerogatives.

    When you say that "it could well be that the huge length and overwhelming musical forces leave no other option as to surrender to the relatively few words that are sung, words that merely highlight the music," I say that that's just as it should be.

  7. #66
    Senior Member Itullian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    California
    Posts
    9,215
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Wagner's influence on literature and philosophy is significant. Millington has commented:
    [Wagner's] protean abundance meant that he could inspire the use of literary motif in many a novel employing interior monologue; ... the Symbolists saw him as a mystic hierophant; the Decadents found many a frisson in his work.[215]

    Friedrich Nietzsche was a member of Wagner's inner circle during the early 1870s, and his first published work, The Birth of Tragedy, proposed Wagner's music as the Dionysian "rebirth" of European culture in opposition to Apollonian rationalist "decadence". Nietzsche broke with Wagner following the first Bayreuth Festival, believing that Wagner's final phase represented a pandering to Christian pieties and a surrender to the new German Reich. Nietzsche expressed his displeasure with the later Wagner in "The Case of Wagner" and "Nietzsche contra Wagner".[216]

    The poets Charles Baudelaire, Stéphane Mallarmé and Paul Verlaine worshipped Wagner.[217] Édouard Dujardin, whose influential novel Les Lauriers sont coupés is in the form of an interior monologue inspired by Wagnerian music, founded a journal dedicated to Wagner, La Revue Wagnérienne, to which J. K. Huysmans and Téodor de Wyzewa contributed.[218] In a list of major cultural figures influenced by Wagner, Bryan Magee includes D. H. Lawrence, Aubrey Beardsley, Romain Rolland, Gérard de Nerval, Pierre-Auguste Renoir, Rainer Maria Rilke and numerous others.[219]


    Unveiling of the Richard Wagner Monument in the Tiergarten, Berlin (1908); painting by Anton von Werner
    In the 20th century, W. H. Auden once called Wagner "perhaps the greatest genius that ever lived",[220] while Thomas Mann[216] and Marcel Proust[221] were heavily influenced by him and discussed Wagner in their novels. He is also discussed in some of the works of James Joyce.[222] Wagnerian themes inhabit T. S. Eliot's The Waste Land, which contains lines from Tristan und Isolde and Götterdämmerung, and Verlaine's poem on Parsifal.[223] Many of Wagner's concepts, including his speculation about dreams, predated their investigation by Sigmund Freud.[224] Wagner had publicly analysed the Oedipus myth before Freud was born in terms of its psychological significance, insisting that incestuous desires are natural and normal, and perceptively exhibiting the relationship between sexuality and anxiety.[225] Georg Groddeck considered the Ring as the first manual of psychoanalysis.[226]

    All this and the music too!
    The man's genius is colossal !!
    Last edited by Itullian; Mar-15-2019 at 20:01.
    When all else fails, listen to Thick as a Brick.

  8. Likes Woodduck, JoeSaunders, MozartsGhost liked this post
  9. #67
    Senior Member JosefinaHW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Posts
    1,585
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    16

    Default

    [QUOTE=Itullian;1603750] Wagner had publicly analysed the Oedipus myth before Freud was born in terms of its psychological significance, insisting that incestuous desires are natural and normal, and perceptively exhibiting the relationship between sexuality and anxiety./QUOTE]

    I suppose "publicly analyzed" might be the difference with what I am thinking, but I have now read many times here on TC that Wagner was the first to discover the subconscious and the Oedipus Complex. I don't intend to minimize Wagner's greatness, but it seems to me that those ancient Greek classics were so moving to the Greek men and have lived through to this day, because humans recognized the deeper meanings of those texts. I did specifically say "men" as the original audience; it's they who would/could relate to the Oedipus complex.

    Whatever the subconscious turns out to be neurologically; if we discover it's a branching of a neuronal path or whatever, I cannot imagine that people throughout time have not experienced the subconscious and probably written about it in diaries if not published texts that I can't recall or didn't read.
    Last edited by JosefinaHW; Mar-15-2019 at 20:10.


  10. #68
    Senior Member DavidA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    12,240
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by NLAdriaan View Post
    Thx for this insightful post!

    It sure required a huge effort to play around (in a positive meaning) with these old tales and to retell them, as Wagner did. But I still think that Wagner as a narrator doesn't reach the level of Wagner as a composer. The German tradition of storytelling and poetry has given us groundbreaking alternatives by the likes of Goethe, Morike and Eichendorff, all of which have been put to music to add even more artistic value to the words. Hugo Wolf in cooperation with one of these gentlemen, delivers far better economics then Wagner in transferring deep stories and emotions to us listeners: 2 musicians and 5 minutes max.

    And how about Monteverdi as a first composer to truly transfer emotions through music, in L'Orfeo for instance.

    But don't get me wrong. Wagner carries you into his story in an unprecedented manner. It could well be that the huge length and overwhelming musical forces leave no other option as to surrender to the relatively few words that are sung, words that merely highlight the music. Had Wagner used more words, no lead singer would survive it. All in all, economics do not directly come to mind when thinking about Wagner.
    First agreed that Wagner was a far greater musician than he was a librettist.

    Second if Wagner had have used less words I believe the operas would be greater dramas than they are. The effect of length is to stultify the drama. Verdi saw this when he edited Don Carlo. He cut much superb music but he realised that the purpose of opera is primarily entertainment not endurance.
    Last edited by DavidA; Mar-15-2019 at 20:47.

  11. #69
    Senior Member DavidA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    12,240
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    [QUOTE=JosefinaHW;1603761]
    Quote Originally Posted by Itullian View Post
    Wagner had publicly analysed the Oedipus myth before Freud was born in terms of its psychological significance, insisting that incestuous desires are natural and normal, and perceptively exhibiting the relationship between sexuality and anxiety./QUOTE]

    I suppose "publicly analyzed" might be the difference with what I am thinking, but I have now read many times here on TC that Wagner was the first to discover the subconscious and the Oedipus Complex. I don't intend to minimize Wagner's greatness, but it seems to me that those ancient Greek classics were so moving to the Greek men and have lived through to this day, because humans recognized the deeper meanings of those texts. I did specifically say "men" as the original audience; it's they who would/could relate to the Oedipus complex.

    Whatever the subconscious turns out to be neurologically; if we discover it's a branching of a neuronal path or whatever, I cannot imagine that people throughout time have not experienced the subconscious and probably written about it in diaries if not published texts that I can't recall or didn't read.
    I have grave doubts about the so-called Oedipus complex and the ridiculous extrapolations Freud read into it.

  12. #70
    Senior Member JosefinaHW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Posts
    1,585
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    16

    Default

    [QUOTE=DavidA;1603781]
    Quote Originally Posted by JosefinaHW View Post

    I have grave doubts about the so-called Oedipus complex and the ridiculous extrapolations Freud read into it.
    That's the man reason I specifically said Greek "men". I suppose I should have said Athenian men--anyway..... I have never met anyone who has admitted they experienced the desire to kill the father or that they lusted after their mother; and the men I asked were either in the psych field, or people that I knew who were self-introspective.

    But, I suppose Freud would have said they haven't undergone enough psychoanalysis.....

    Or you could say that this "reality" if it is one, is more a direct and necessary relationship between anxiety and lust. I don't experience that either, but, regardless Wagner was not the first to suggest this idea. And there are individuals who are so repressed--from whatever cause--that they do have a problem with sex.
    Last edited by JosefinaHW; Mar-15-2019 at 21:04.


  13. #71
    Senior Member DavidA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    12,240
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    [QUOTE=JosefinaHW;1603786]
    Quote Originally Posted by DavidA View Post

    That's the man reason I specifically said Greek "men". I suppose I should have said Athenian men--anyway..... I have never met anyone who has admitted they experienced the desire to kill the father or that they lusted after their mother; and the men I asked were either in the psych field, or people that I knew who were self-introspective.

    But, I suppose Freud would have said they haven't undergone enough psychoanalysis.....

    Or you could say that this "reality" if it is one, is more a direct and necessary relationship between anxiety and lust. I don't experience that either, but, regardless Wagner was not the first to suggest this idea. And there are individuals who are so repressed--from whatever cause--that they do have a problem with sex.
    Yes Wagner obviously had huge problems as he didn't actually know who is father really was. The thing is shrouded in doubt. One thing Freud did explore was the subconscious. He obviously went too far in his theories and was quite wrong in some of them, but today we are finding just how damaging attachment problems can be. Wagner obviously had them.

  14. #72
    Senior Member JosefinaHW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Posts
    1,585
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    16

    Default

    [QUOTE=DavidA;1603787]
    Quote Originally Posted by JosefinaHW View Post

    Yes Wagner obviously had huge problems as he didn't actually know who is father really was. The thing is shrouded in doubt. One thing Freud did explore was the subconscious. He obviously went too far in his theories and was quite wrong in some of them, but today we are finding just how damaging attachment problems can be. Wagner obviously had them.
    David, I was not stating, implying, or even subconsciously thinking (I think :-) ) that Wagner had psychological issues/neuroses.... I don't want to turn this into a "Let's trash Wagner" thread.

    Again, having just said what I said we ALL have neuroses. Some may have less impact on someone's professional life, love life, comfort with one's self, etc., etc..

    It seems to me that the idea has lasted too long for there not to be some truth to it in some form or other. Again, back to the power of the Athenian classics--they were performed as a religious ceremony in which the Athenian men participated in some way. Those plays had to have tremendous emotional impact for them to used as religious/spiritual function.
    Last edited by JosefinaHW; Mar-15-2019 at 21:19.


  15. #73
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Location
    Deutschland
    Posts
    280
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Clouds Weep Snowflakes View Post
    Anyone into his operas? I think he was very talented, and the fact he was quite an anti-Semite and inspiration to Hitler and his operas are not conducted publicly in Israel because of that (though thankfully selling them for private use is perfectly legal) doesn't diminish the talent he had; Theodor Herzl himself admired Wagner's operas!
    I own these on CDs:

    Parsifal
    Tristan and Isolde
    The Flying Dutchman

    What else should I get?

    Now for another question; do you enjoy listening to music without speaking the language? I enjoy music in Latin and German (^Wagner) without speaking them (though I wished I would, I actually wanted to learn German but my family didn't want me to), though people commonly say my English is very good.
    Wagner is the GOAT.

  16. Likes Bonetan liked this post
  17. #74
    Senior Member JosefinaHW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Posts
    1,585
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    16

    Default

    I can't pull out 132 studies that say that neuroses to the point of pathology or other types of "diseases" of the mind aren't frequently found in great artists, but I do think there is very often a connection. With work I think many people can learn to dance with their disability and create something great with it. Because Wagner was plagued by who is father was doesn't discredit his work in anyway. He might have used that ENERGY, channeled it in conjunction with his compositional and literary knowledge. I listen to his works and I hear PASSION/ENERGY. What were its sources?......
    Last edited by JosefinaHW; Mar-15-2019 at 21:28.


  18. #75
    Senior Member DavidA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    12,240
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    [QUOTE=JosefinaHW;1603790]
    Quote Originally Posted by DavidA View Post

    David, I was not stating, implying, or even subconsciously thinking (I think :-) ) that Wagner had psychological issues/neuroses.... I don't want to turn this into a "Let's trash Wagner" thread.

    Again, having just said what I said we ALL have neuroses. Some may have less impact on someone's professional life, love life, comfort with one's self, etc., etc..

    It seems to me that the idea has lasted too long for there not to be some truth to it in some form or other. Again, back to the power of the Athenian classics--they were performed as a religious ceremony in which the Athenian men participated in some way. Those plays had to have tremendous emotional impact for them to used as religious/spiritual function.
    No question in my mind that Wagner had BPD. Anyone having that degree of megalomania if an obvious case. Of course he wasn't the only composer to have this sort of problem.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •