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Thread: Was Tchaikovsky a Homosexual?

  1. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by CnC Bartok View Post
    I've heard rumours that Benjamin Britten (a fellow Englishman) might have, ahem, "batted for the other side". Is this true? Would anyone like to corroborate this "slur on all British men"?

    I won't mention Aaron Copland, Ned Rorem, David Diamond, for fear of being accused of Anti-American sentiment.
    Really ??? I am so shocked...

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  3. #137
    Senior Member Kivimees's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenOC View Post
    In reading these exchanges, I'm unavoidably reminded of how the real Zhdanov died.
    Indeed.

    I'm led to wonder how well it would go over for a TC participant to post by the name of Goebbels complete with portrait.

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  5. #138
    Senior Member CnC Bartok's Avatar
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    I understand that said Zhdanov isn't remembered fondly up in Estonia. I wonder why.........
    Last edited by CnC Bartok; Apr-20-2019 at 17:26.

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  7. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by EdwardBast View Post
    Nice try Zhdanov. You and I had this exact discussion a year or two ago and you read quotes I posted from Tchaikovsky's letters and diaries proving numerous affairs with men — waiters, drozhsky drivers, bathroom attendants, young military officers, at least one anonymous black man in the park for money — They can all be found published in Poznansky's biography of the composer. Anyone who wants to dig up that Tchaikovsky thread, from the main discussion forum(?) — I think the subject was his supposed suicide — please have at it. Or just look in the index of Poznansky under homosexuality.

    Zhdanov, you know Lucas is right. You've read the evidence. So stop playing games.
    Absolutely. The only "fake" here are the desperate and useless attempts to make us believe that Tchaikovsky's homosexuality hasn't now been proven since a long time by his own papers among other things, exploited by all his biographers, scholars and curators, none of them hinting that Zhdanov's kind of behaviour has the slightest beginning of relevance. I will add that I am reading a book about the sumerian world by Samuel Kramer at the moment. I am not going to yell "fake, fake, fake" at each page, because I hasn't see the cuneiform tablets on which his work is based and that nobody cared to send them to me in a parcel. That's a nonsense.
    Last edited by Lucas; Apr-20-2019 at 19:29.

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  9. #140
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    Anyone can go to Tchaikovsky Research and read his complete letters. There is an article on there about the Soviet critical edition of Tchaikovsky's complete works, which notes that his letters were purged of all references not only to his homosexuality, and intimate relationships (of all kinds) but also his illnesses and those of his friends and servants! They also bowdlerised all the language thought to be vulgar and removed ideologically unwanted material.

    I guess the Zhdanov family must have received one of those copies.
    Last edited by eugeneonagain; Apr-20-2019 at 20:57.

  10. #141
    Senior Member Zhdanov's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eugeneonagain View Post
    Anyone can go to Tchaikovsky Research and read his complete letters.
    poorly translated, yeah, like this one for example - http://en.tchaikovsky-research.net/pages/Letter_9 - where 'i miss you so much dear mom and dad' was translated as 'I am very sad' etc.

    no wonder how did it come about him being seen a gay as a result, and we can only hope that it all ends there with no further slandering of his name and turning him into a bank robber or a serial killer.

  11. #142
    Senior Member CnC Bartok's Avatar
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    Gay = Slander?

    The words "backwards", "bigoted" and "primitive" spring to mind. For God's sake try dragging yourself out of the nineteenth century.

  12. #143
    Senior Member Zhdanov's Avatar
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    same here - http://en.tchaikovsky-research.net/pages/Letter_319 - the last phrase translates not as "What's mine shall be ours!" but "our close circle will be visiting me" which is big difference.

  13. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zhdanov View Post
    ...
    no wonder how did it come about him being seen a gay as a result, and we can only hope that it all ends there with no further slandering of his name and turning him into a bank robber or a serial killer.
    In this thread you have used the terms "accuse", "demonizing", and "slandering" for referring to Tchaikovsky as gay. On TC (or anywhere) those terms are inappropriate when discussing whether someone is gay just as they would be when discussing whether someone is left-handed. You may believe that Tchaikovsky was not gay, but please refrain from such usage.

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  15. #145
    Senior Member MacLeod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zhdanov View Post
    poorly translated, yeah, like this one for example - http://en.tchaikovsky-research.net/pages/Letter_9 - where 'i miss you so much dear mom and dad' was translated as 'I am very sad' etc.

    no wonder how did it come about him being seen a gay as a result, and we can only hope that it all ends there with no further slandering of his name and turning him into a bank robber or a serial killer.
    So, your President Putin's assertion that Tchaik is gay (link posted by two separate members)...is that fake as well?
    Last edited by MacLeod; Apr-21-2019 at 09:46.
    "I left TC for a hiatus, but since no-one noticed my absence, I came back again."

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  17. #146
    Senior Member Zhdanov's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmsbls View Post
    the terms "accuse", "demonizing", and "slandering" for referring to Tchaikovsky as gay. On TC (or anywhere) those terms are inappropriate when discussing whether someone is gay just as they would be when discussing whether someone is left-handed.
    that is as of today, but as of the 19th century - it was completely different, and we are discussing a 19th century person, therefore we should approach things as they stood back then for better understanding and in order to pass fair judgement.

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    Senior Member CnC Bartok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zhdanov View Post
    poorly translated, yeah, like this one for example - http://en.tchaikovsky-research.net/pages/Letter_9 - where 'i miss you so much dear mom and dad' was translated as 'I am very sad' etc.

    no wonder how did it come about him being seen a gay as a result, and we can only hope that it all ends there with no further slandering of his name and turning him into a bank robber or a serial killer.
    Clear use of THE PRESENT TENSE.

    Unfortunately, here in "The West", your Motherland is being portrayed in a very bad light in recent years, a country where certain groups of people are not safe and not free to pursue their own lives as they see fit. Tragically, the attitudes you are displaying here do nothing to erase those feelings.
    Last edited by CnC Bartok; Apr-21-2019 at 11:00.

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  20. #148
    Senior Member Zhdanov's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CnC Bartok View Post
    Clear use of THE PRESENT TENSE.
    sure, because the man is with us, as a history figure, but he lived in conformity with his time, not that of ours.

    besides, can someone put there finger on where does the research say he was a gay?

  21. #149
    Senior Member Zhdanov's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CnC Bartok View Post
    here in "The West", your Motherland is being portrayed in a very bad light in recent years,
    as has always been, and this should be kept in mind when you deal with Western scholarship and the media.

  22. #150
    Senior Member MacLeod's Avatar
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    @Zhdanov. Not that you're avoiding responding to my question, I'm sure. How about Putin's reported quote?
    "I left TC for a hiatus, but since no-one noticed my absence, I came back again."

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