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Thread: Was Tchaikovsky a Homosexual?

  1. #121
    Senior Member KenOC's Avatar
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    Uh...why is saying that Tchaikovsky was gay "demonization"?


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  3. #122
    Senior Member joen_cph's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zhdanov View Post
    look folks, right now there is another demonisation going on, so we can witness how they do it. Michael Jackson is being portrayed as a paedophile by the media, while he merely was a person who feared growing up and so he surrounded himself with children because he had seen nothing good from adults.
    You must have been a very regular visitor at Jackson's place then, judging from your own logics, since you can claim that.

    Well, I don't think you were.
    Last edited by joen_cph; Apr-20-2019 at 08:28.

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  5. #123
    Senior Member Zhdanov's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joen_cph View Post
    You must have been a very regular visitor at Jackson's place then
    had Jackson been a paedo, he would not only have pulled it off but also would be now among the glorified of the West.

  6. #124
    Senior Member Larkenfield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zhdanov View Post
    look folks, right now there is another demonization going on, so we can witness how they do it. Michael Jackson is being portrayed as a paedophile by the media, while he merely was a person who feared growing up and so he surrounded himself with children because he had seen nothing good from adults.
    No one here is demonizing Tchaikovsky because of his sexual orientation as a homosexual. In fact, it’s just the opposite: he’s being demonized because certain factions in Russia stubbornly refuse to admit to his homosexuality because it’s looked down on as a defect in character when he may have simply been born that way and suffered because of the way it was viewed in his lifetime. So it’s a terrible mistake to think that he’s being looked down on because of his sexual orientation as evident in his own letters and the letters of those who knew him. The West has a different more tolerant view of homosexuality and they do not condemn it as they do in your country as a defect in character or as a slur on his character. I have seen no judgment of him as a homosexual in this thread; the only stigma comes from those who refuse to admit to the copious documentation seen by scholars and writers, for one ridiculous reason or another, that he was in fact a homosexual. So was Modest his brother! Now, not acknowledging his sexuality, that’s what I would call demonization and look who’s leading the charge. No one has been condemning him for his sexual proclivities that are sometimes beyond a person’s control. But it’s time that his documented homosexuality is fully accepted as being real and that there was no shame in it. There have been many documented homosexual composers, such as Aaron Copland, Virgil Thomson, Benjamin Britten, Samual Barber, Menotti, John Corigliano, and others. So it’s hardly an unprecedented tendency among composers. The only difference is that the West is more open and less judgemental about it.
    Last edited by Larkenfield; Apr-20-2019 at 15:33.
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  8. #125
    Senior Member Zhdanov's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larkenfield View Post
    The West has a different more tolerant view of homosexuality and they do not condemn
    they do but only would not admit to doing so, and them going out of there way to accuse a composer from other country for homosexuality just proves that.

  9. #126
    Senior Member joen_cph's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zhdanov View Post
    had Jackson been a paedo, he would not only have pulled it off but also would be now among the glorified of the West.
    You've just said that Jackson is being unjustly demonized as a paedophile by Western media, and that he's innocent.

    A couple of minutes later you say that he wasn't a paedophile, because if he was a paedophile, he would be glorified by Western media.

    Either you are confused, or contradiction is the only purpose.
    Last edited by joen_cph; Apr-20-2019 at 09:03.

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  11. #127
    Senior Member Zhdanov's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joen_cph View Post
    You've just said that Jackson is being unjustly demonized as a paedophile by Western media, and that he's innocent. A couple of minutes later you say that he wasn't a paedophile, because if he was a paedophile, he would be glorified by Western media.
    glorified not for being a paedophile, of course.

  12. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zhdanov View Post
    go to Klin then, ask them show you these 'letters' to see for yourself.
    No, but you can go if you want. Scholars and biographers already did since years and published this correspondance in full. That's not a guy ...who will cast any doubt on this scholarly well and universally established historical datas.
    Last edited by mmsbls; Apr-20-2019 at 22:45. Reason: Removed inappropriate comment

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  14. #129
    Senior Member MacLeod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by joen_cph View Post
    Either you are confused, or contradiction is the only purpose.
    No..."No collusion, no obstruction." ?
    Last edited by MacLeod; Apr-20-2019 at 09:11.
    "I left TC for a hiatus, but since no-one noticed my absence, I came back again."

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  16. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zhdanov View Post
    they do but only would not admit to doing so, and them going out of there way to accuse a composer from other country for homosexuality just proves that.
    It's not an accusation, it's a fact. And even Russian know it perfectly, it's not a matter of nationality.

  17. #131
    Senior Member Zhdanov's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucas View Post
    It's not an accusation, it's a fact. And even Russian know it perfectly,
    we don't and here's the museum website - https://tchaikovsky.house - no 'letters' in question in sight.

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    Senior Member joen_cph's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zhdanov View Post
    glorified not for being a paedophile, of course.
    Ok, so if Jackson was a paedophile, he would have been able to hide that fact, and there would be no debate.
    Whereas that it is now being debated, whether he was a paedophile, is a proof of that he wasn't one.

    Still doesn't sound quite right, however.

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  20. #133
    Senior Member DavidA's Avatar
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    I don't think there was much doubt about his homosexuality.

    https://www.theguardian.com/music/20...-homosexuality

    What there does seem to be dispute about is the nature of his death, whether it was from cholera or whether suicide as an illegal affair was to be uncovered. The last biography I read is inconclusive.

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  22. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zhdanov View Post
    we don't and here's the museum website - https://tchaikovsky.house - no 'letters' in question in sight.
    You are not "Russians", a lot of them are quite reasonnable and don't claim that to note he was homosexual is like to note that he was an alien ; even Putin don't seriously cast doubt about that historical fact : https://www.reuters.com/article/us-r...9830XL20130904. And it's not because hundreds of books written on Tchaikovsky are not mentionned on the presentation page of the Klin Museum that these hundreds of books don't exist. Your link is not an archive inventory, Tchaikovsky wrote thousands of preserved letters.
    Last edited by Lucas; Apr-20-2019 at 12:54.

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  24. #135
    Senior Member CnC Bartok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zhdanov View Post
    they do but only would not admit to doing so, and them going out of there way to accuse a composer from other country for homosexuality just proves that.
    I've heard rumours that Benjamin Britten (a fellow Englishman) might have, ahem, "batted for the other side". Is this true? Would anyone like to corroborate this "slur on all British men"?

    I won't mention Aaron Copland, Ned Rorem, David Diamond, for fear of being accused of Anti-American sentiment.

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