View Poll Results: Is Locrian a Minor mode, Diminished mode, or something else?

Voters
9. You may not vote on this poll
  • Minor mode

    4 44.44%
  • Diminished mode

    2 22.22%
  • Other

    3 33.33%
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 31

Thread: Is Locrian a minor mode or a diminished mode?

  1. #16
    Senior Member Torkelburger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    539
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by millionrainbows View Post
    Here is something to consider, also: if a half-diminished chord is voiced or heard in a certain way, it can also be considered to be a minor sixth chord.
    B-D-F-A half-diminished becomes D minor 6 (D 13): D (root) F (m3rd) A (fifth) B (minor sixth or thirteenth), so the B Locrian will also work over a Dm6 or D13 chord.
    Nitpick: In jazz, a D13 chord is D - F# - A - C - B. Technically speaking, you don't have higher tensions (9,11,13) unless the 7th is present. So if the 7th is not present, then the 13th is just a 6th.

  2. #17
    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    12,589
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    137

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Torkelburger View Post
    Nitpick: In jazz, a D13 chord is D - F# - A - C - B. Technically speaking, you don't have higher tensions (9,11,13) unless the 7th is present. So if the 7th is not present, then the 13th is just a 6th.
    OK, I'll concede that. It still sounds good over a D6, tho. I appreciate the nitpick.
    Last edited by millionrainbows; Apr-10-2019 at 13:03.

  3. #18
    New Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2018
    Posts
    10
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    The first table classifies the scales based on their third.
    Consequently Locrian is classified as minor, since it has a minor third.

    The second table classifies the scales based on the scale degree they're derived from.
    Consequently Locrian is a diminished mode, since it's based on the diminished scale degree (vii in major & ii in minor).

    So the tables don't contradict each other, since they use two different features of the scale for their classification.


    Whoever is teaching you - run away - your musical thinking is very unnatural and it's clear, this is because you're given over-complicated and unrelated informations by wannabes, who just want to feel "superior" by showing that no one grasps their "complicated concepts", when in fact, it's them, who don't have a grasp and accordingly need to make their superficial semiliteracy as complicated and sophisticated sounding as possible, to hide the fact, they have absolutely no idea, what they're talking about or even worse, have "negative knowledge" - studying doing it wrong for 30 years and calling it experience.

    If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it yourself.

    Hope this helps.

    Martin

  4. #19
    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    12,589
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    137

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Torkelburger View Post
    Nitpick: In jazz, a D13 chord is D - F# - A - C - B. Technically speaking, you don't have higher tensions (9,11,13) unless the 7th is present. So if the 7th is not present, then the 13th is just a 6th.
    If the 7th is not present, it might be a guitar player using an incomplete voicing. And still, a B Locrian will still work over a D13, and, as Eugene said, over minor chords. See Miles Davis: Nardis

    Last edited by millionrainbows; May-26-2019 at 23:49.
    "The way out is through the door. Why is it that no one will use this method?"
    -Confucious

    "In Spring! In the creation of art it must be as it is in Spring!" -Arnold Schoenberg

    "We only become what we are by the radical and deep-seated refusal of that which others have made us." -Jean-Paul Sartre

    "I don't mind dying, as long as I can still breathe." ---Me

  5. #20
    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    12,589
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    137

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kiyatsiya View Post
    I first heard about modes is that it is a minor mode, despite its diminished 5th because it's tonic is the seventh degree of the major scale and the seventh tends to have a diminished quality, especially in minor.
    I've always disagreed with the identification of vii˚ as a "root." Both Walter Piston and Schoenberg tell us that (key of C) B-D-F is best considered as an incomplete G7 (no root) and is resolved like one.
    "The way out is through the door. Why is it that no one will use this method?"
    -Confucious

    "In Spring! In the creation of art it must be as it is in Spring!" -Arnold Schoenberg

    "We only become what we are by the radical and deep-seated refusal of that which others have made us." -Jean-Paul Sartre

    "I don't mind dying, as long as I can still breathe." ---Me

  6. #21
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Posts
    302
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by millionrainbows View Post
    I've always disagreed with the identification of vii˚ as a "root." Both Walter Piston and Schoenberg tell us that (key of C) B-D-F is best considered as an incomplete G7 (no root) and is resolved like one.
    There is no such thing as chord without a root.
    "Resolving" a chord has to do with voice leading and our brain searching for harmonic series and stable/rooted octave harmonies.
    If you experiment with just intonation scales derived directly from the overtone series (no stacking of intervals or any theoretical math, just choose a long enough harmonics segment), you will notice that there are TONS of microtonal chord changes that are not stable and resolve only to a pure major triad (I wonder how stable minor triad sounded to people that were not exposed to Western type music in the past... ).
    It is funny how a whole style was developed with just a few harmonic "gestures" like V7-I etc as rules. But this is hardly the only thing we can do musically and basing some kind of "universal" logic on such rules doesn't work.
    Last edited by BabyGiraffe; Jun-09-2019 at 15:10.

  7. #22
    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    12,589
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    137

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BabyGiraffe View Post
    There is no such thing as chord without a root.
    It's an assumed root. B-D-F is a triad. I'm not sure why you hear vii˚ as a root on B. I never could convince myself.

    "Resolving" a chord has to do with voice leading and our brain searching for harmonic series and stable/rooted octave harmonies.
    I know, that's why vii˚ with its unstable fifth doesn't sound like it's rooted on B, and apparently Piston and Schoenberg agree.

    If you experiment with just intonation scales derived directly from the overtone series (no stacking of intervals or any theoretical math, just choose a long enough harmonics segment), you will notice that there are TONS of microtonal chord changes that are not stable and resolve only to a pure major triad (I wonder how stable minor triad sounded to people that were not exposed to Western type music in the past... ).
    That's a point we have always disagreed on; even "just" intonation has to have a starting point, and whatever intervals are derived from that are relational.

    It is funny how a whole style was developed with just a few harmonic "gestures" like V7-I etc as rules. But this is hardly the only thing we can do musically and basing some kind of "universal" logic on such rules doesn't work.
    The one basic rule that Western music is based on is the fifth, and we are close enough.
    "The way out is through the door. Why is it that no one will use this method?"
    -Confucious

    "In Spring! In the creation of art it must be as it is in Spring!" -Arnold Schoenberg

    "We only become what we are by the radical and deep-seated refusal of that which others have made us." -Jean-Paul Sartre

    "I don't mind dying, as long as I can still breathe." ---Me

  8. #23
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Posts
    302
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Well, something sounding "rooted" (being able to deduce overtone series) and having an actual root are different things. Minor chords are also not rooted and sound unresolved and sad, but we have accepted them as valid harmony.
    It is funny that acoustically 3:4:5 chord (second inversion major chord) is more consonant than 4:5:6 (standard major chord), but it's not rooted, so is unstable.
    Various temperaments make certain chords more dissonant; in just intonation (we know that string and woodwind players play closer to this than to 12 equal, brass players - most of the time- sound closer to pythagorean for some reason - maybe the construction of instruments) diminished chord may be unstable, but is hardly dissonant.
    In 12 equal you will hear hardly hear any diminished chords in modern music outside of occasional movie horror shock scenes.

  9. #24
    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    12,589
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    137

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BabyGiraffe View Post
    Well, something sounding "rooted" (being able to deduce overtone series) and having an actual root are different things. Minor chords are also not rooted and sound unresolved and sad, but we have accepted them as valid harmony.
    You often say things that sound contradictory to me.
    If a triad has a fifth, it sounds rooted. This includes minor chords.

    It is funny that acoustically 3:4:5 chord (second inversion major chord) is more consonant than 4:5:6 (standard major chord), but it's not rooted, so is unstable.
    The root is not in the bass, but it's stable.

    We hear fourths as "root on top." Example: G-C-E (3:4:5 - second inversion major chord) we hear as a C chord because of the fourth G-C.

    We hear fifths as "root on bottom." C-E-G (4:5:6 - standard major chord) we hear as a C chord because of the fifth C-G.

    It's weird to me that you can talk about "being able to deduce overtone series" without apparently knowing this.
    Last edited by millionrainbows; Jun-10-2019 at 08:05.
    "The way out is through the door. Why is it that no one will use this method?"
    -Confucious

    "In Spring! In the creation of art it must be as it is in Spring!" -Arnold Schoenberg

    "We only become what we are by the radical and deep-seated refusal of that which others have made us." -Jean-Paul Sartre

    "I don't mind dying, as long as I can still breathe." ---Me

  10. #25
    Senior Member mikeh375's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    373
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    2

    Default

    I thought this also about minor roots in BG's post MR. I assume BG is referring to the structure of the overtone series that constitutes a major triad in its initial overtones. Regardless of the theory though , minor chords are rooted to all intents and purposes and do not sound unresolved to composers.
    Last edited by mikeh375; Jun-10-2019 at 08:12.

  11. Likes millionrainbows liked this post
  12. #26
    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    12,589
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    137

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mikeh375 View Post
    I thought this also about minor roots in BG's post MR. I assume BG is referring to the structure of the overtone series that constitutes a major triad in its initial overtones. Regardless of the theory though , minor chords are rooted to all intents and purposes and do not sound unresolved to composers.
    Baby Giraffe gets too stuck on the overtone series, without realizing that harmonic hierarchies can be created in other ways, not based on natural overtones, but nonetheless "effective" harmonically. That means our ears can be convinced.
    "The way out is through the door. Why is it that no one will use this method?"
    -Confucious

    "In Spring! In the creation of art it must be as it is in Spring!" -Arnold Schoenberg

    "We only become what we are by the radical and deep-seated refusal of that which others have made us." -Jean-Paul Sartre

    "I don't mind dying, as long as I can still breathe." ---Me

  13. #27
    Senior Member Bwv 1080's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    295
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by caters View Post
    I have heard 2 different schools of thought when describing the Locrian mode. The first one that I heard several years ago, when I first heard about modes is that it is a minor mode, despite its diminished 5th because it's tonic is the seventh degree of the major scale and the seventh tends to have a diminished quality, especially in minor.

    Now I hear more people saying that it is not a minor mode, it is its own mode, a diminished mode.
    What difference does that make? When it is spoken of as minor it refers to the third and is compared to the other minor modes, when described as diminished, or more properly half-diminished, it refers to the harmonic function. These are just words, dont put more into them than is warranted

    Quote Originally Posted by caters View Post

    This one implies that the modes are incomplete, at least to my eyes it does. To my eyes, this means there should be 3 diminished modes and 3 augmented modes just like how there are 3 major modes and in this school of thought, 3 minor modes. Also, the only connection between Locrian and the Diminished Scale is that the tonic triad is diminished in both cases. The Diminished Scale goes further than Locrian because the only triad you can make out of the Diminished scale, with each note being 2 scale degrees away is a diminished triad.
    why should this be so? there is one tritone in a diatonic scale, so only two modes will have a tritone above the root, one with a sharp 4 and the other with a flat 5. You can make major triads and dominant 7th chords (and flat or sharp 9, sharp 11 or flat 5 and add the 13 - so any altered dominant chord that does not have an augmented triad) from a diminished scale (half-whole version) and it is often used over them in Jazz

    To my eyes, basing the classification of the modes on the tonic alone as in the school of thought that says that Locrian is a diminished mode is not right. I would say that Locrian is a minor mode because it is based off of the minor scale. Also, Locrian, to me at least suggests that the so called tonic is actually the dominant and thus it is too unstable for me to even consider using as a key.

    Besides, saying that you have a diminished mode can be confusing. It could refer to one of 2 modes of the Diminished Scale(half whole or whole half) or it could refer to a mode where the tonic is diminished.

    But what do you think? Do you think Locrian is a diminished mode and not a minor mode? If so, why?
    Locrian is not based on one of the minor scales, just compared to it. It is a mode of the diatonic scale that was hardly, if ever used (can anyone identify a premodern piece written in locrian?) Its seventh chord is half-diminished which is how most musicians think about it in a tonal context

  14. #28
    Senior Member Bwv 1080's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    295
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BabyGiraffe View Post
    In 12 equal you will hear hardly hear any diminished chords in modern music outside of occasional movie horror shock scenes.
    ???? Any tonal music more sophisticated than 3 chord pop or country is full of diminished chords of all varieties

  15. #29
    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    12,589
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    137

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BabyGiraffe View Post
    In 12 equal you will hear hardly hear any diminished chords in modern music outside of occasional movie horror shock scenes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bwv 1080 View Post
    ???? Any tonal music more sophisticated than 3 chord pop or country is full of diminished chords of all varieties
    That's typical of BabyGiraffe's know-it-all responses.
    Last edited by millionrainbows; Jul-31-2019 at 22:20.
    "The way out is through the door. Why is it that no one will use this method?"
    -Confucious

    "In Spring! In the creation of art it must be as it is in Spring!" -Arnold Schoenberg

    "We only become what we are by the radical and deep-seated refusal of that which others have made us." -Jean-Paul Sartre

    "I don't mind dying, as long as I can still breathe." ---Me

  16. #30
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Posts
    302
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bwv 1080 View Post
    ???? Any tonal music more sophisticated than 3 chord pop or country is full of diminished chords of all varieties
    Obviously, I was not talking about art music... Anyone is free to use there textures ranging from simplest dyadic harmony up to dissonant microtonal clusters (Ligeti )
    (And pop music is usually at least 4 chord, right? )

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •