View Poll Results: Is Locrian a Minor mode, Diminished mode, or something else?

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  • Minor mode

    4 50.00%
  • Diminished mode

    1 12.50%
  • Other

    3 37.50%
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Thread: Is Locrian a minor mode or a diminished mode?

  1. #16
    Senior Member Torkelburger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millionrainbows View Post
    Here is something to consider, also: if a half-diminished chord is voiced or heard in a certain way, it can also be considered to be a minor sixth chord.
    B-D-F-A half-diminished becomes D minor 6 (D 13): D (root) F (m3rd) A (fifth) B (minor sixth or thirteenth), so the B Locrian will also work over a Dm6 or D13 chord.
    Nitpick: In jazz, a D13 chord is D - F# - A - C - B. Technically speaking, you don't have higher tensions (9,11,13) unless the 7th is present. So if the 7th is not present, then the 13th is just a 6th.

  2. #17
    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Torkelburger View Post
    Nitpick: In jazz, a D13 chord is D - F# - A - C - B. Technically speaking, you don't have higher tensions (9,11,13) unless the 7th is present. So if the 7th is not present, then the 13th is just a 6th.
    OK, I'll concede that. It still sounds good over a D6, tho. I appreciate the nitpick.
    Last edited by millionrainbows; Apr-10-2019 at 13:03.

  3. #18
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    The first table classifies the scales based on their third.
    Consequently Locrian is classified as minor, since it has a minor third.

    The second table classifies the scales based on the scale degree they're derived from.
    Consequently Locrian is a diminished mode, since it's based on the diminished scale degree (vii in major & ii in minor).

    So the tables don't contradict each other, since they use two different features of the scale for their classification.


    Whoever is teaching you - run away - your musical thinking is very unnatural and it's clear, this is because you're given over-complicated and unrelated informations by wannabes, who just want to feel "superior" by showing that no one grasps their "complicated concepts", when in fact, it's them, who don't have a grasp and accordingly need to make their superficial semiliteracy as complicated and sophisticated sounding as possible, to hide the fact, they have absolutely no idea, what they're talking about or even worse, have "negative knowledge" - studying doing it wrong for 30 years and calling it experience.

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  4. #19
    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Torkelburger View Post
    Nitpick: In jazz, a D13 chord is D - F# - A - C - B. Technically speaking, you don't have higher tensions (9,11,13) unless the 7th is present. So if the 7th is not present, then the 13th is just a 6th.
    If the 7th is not present, it might be a guitar player using an incomplete voicing. And still, a B Locrian will still work over a D13, and, as Eugene said, over minor chords. See Miles Davis: Nardis

    Last edited by millionrainbows; May-26-2019 at 23:49.
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  5. #20
    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kiyatsiya View Post
    I first heard about modes is that it is a minor mode, despite its diminished 5th because it's tonic is the seventh degree of the major scale and the seventh tends to have a diminished quality, especially in minor.
    I've always disagreed with the identification of vii˚ as a "root." Both Walter Piston and Schoenberg tell us that (key of C) B-D-F is best considered as an incomplete G7 (no root) and is resolved like one.
    "The way out is through the door. Why is it that no one will use this method?"
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    "In Spring! In the creation of art it must be as it is in Spring!" -Arnold Schoenberg

    "We only become what we are by the radical and deep-seated refusal of that which others have made us." -Jean-Paul Sartre

    "I don't mind dying, as long as I can still breathe." ---Me

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by millionrainbows View Post
    I've always disagreed with the identification of vii˚ as a "root." Both Walter Piston and Schoenberg tell us that (key of C) B-D-F is best considered as an incomplete G7 (no root) and is resolved like one.
    There is no such thing as chord without a root.
    "Resolving" a chord has to do with voice leading and our brain searching for harmonic series and stable/rooted octave harmonies.
    If you experiment with just intonation scales derived directly from the overtone series (no stacking of intervals or any theoretical math, just choose a long enough harmonics segment), you will notice that there are TONS of microtonal chord changes that are not stable and resolve only to a pure major triad (I wonder how stable minor triad sounded to people that were not exposed to Western type music in the past... ).
    It is funny how a whole style was developed with just a few harmonic "gestures" like V7-I etc as rules. But this is hardly the only thing we can do musically and basing some kind of "universal" logic on such rules doesn't work.
    Last edited by BabyGiraffe; Jun-09-2019 at 15:10.

  7. #22
    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BabyGiraffe View Post
    There is no such thing as chord without a root.
    It's an assumed root. B-D-F is a triad. I'm not sure why you hear vii˚ as a root on B. I never could convince myself.

    "Resolving" a chord has to do with voice leading and our brain searching for harmonic series and stable/rooted octave harmonies.
    I know, that's why vii˚ with its unstable fifth doesn't sound like it's rooted on B, and apparently Piston and Schoenberg agree.

    If you experiment with just intonation scales derived directly from the overtone series (no stacking of intervals or any theoretical math, just choose a long enough harmonics segment), you will notice that there are TONS of microtonal chord changes that are not stable and resolve only to a pure major triad (I wonder how stable minor triad sounded to people that were not exposed to Western type music in the past... ).
    That's a point we have always disagreed on; even "just" intonation has to have a starting point, and whatever intervals are derived from that are relational.

    It is funny how a whole style was developed with just a few harmonic "gestures" like V7-I etc as rules. But this is hardly the only thing we can do musically and basing some kind of "universal" logic on such rules doesn't work.
    The one basic rule that Western music is based on is the fifth, and we are close enough.
    "The way out is through the door. Why is it that no one will use this method?"
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    "In Spring! In the creation of art it must be as it is in Spring!" -Arnold Schoenberg

    "We only become what we are by the radical and deep-seated refusal of that which others have made us." -Jean-Paul Sartre

    "I don't mind dying, as long as I can still breathe." ---Me

  8. #23
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    Well, something sounding "rooted" (being able to deduce overtone series) and having an actual root are different things. Minor chords are also not rooted and sound unresolved and sad, but we have accepted them as valid harmony.
    It is funny that acoustically 3:4:5 chord (second inversion major chord) is more consonant than 4:5:6 (standard major chord), but it's not rooted, so is unstable.
    Various temperaments make certain chords more dissonant; in just intonation (we know that string and woodwind players play closer to this than to 12 equal, brass players - most of the time- sound closer to pythagorean for some reason - maybe the construction of instruments) diminished chord may be unstable, but is hardly dissonant.
    In 12 equal you will hear hardly hear any diminished chords in modern music outside of occasional movie horror shock scenes.

  9. #24
    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BabyGiraffe View Post
    Well, something sounding "rooted" (being able to deduce overtone series) and having an actual root are different things. Minor chords are also not rooted and sound unresolved and sad, but we have accepted them as valid harmony.
    You often say things that sound contradictory to me.
    If a triad has a fifth, it sounds rooted. This includes minor chords.

    It is funny that acoustically 3:4:5 chord (second inversion major chord) is more consonant than 4:5:6 (standard major chord), but it's not rooted, so is unstable.
    The root is not in the bass, but it's stable.

    We hear fourths as "root on top." Example: G-C-E (3:4:5 - second inversion major chord) we hear as a C chord because of the fourth G-C.

    We hear fifths as "root on bottom." C-E-G (4:5:6 - standard major chord) we hear as a C chord because of the fifth C-G.

    It's weird to me that you can talk about "being able to deduce overtone series" without apparently knowing this.
    Last edited by millionrainbows; Jun-10-2019 at 08:05.
    "The way out is through the door. Why is it that no one will use this method?"
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    "In Spring! In the creation of art it must be as it is in Spring!" -Arnold Schoenberg

    "We only become what we are by the radical and deep-seated refusal of that which others have made us." -Jean-Paul Sartre

    "I don't mind dying, as long as I can still breathe." ---Me

  10. #25
    Senior Member mikeh375's Avatar
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    I thought this also about minor roots in BG's post MR. I assume BG is referring to the structure of the overtone series that constitutes a major triad in its initial overtones. Regardless of the theory though , minor chords are rooted to all intents and purposes and do not sound unresolved to composers.
    Last edited by mikeh375; Jun-10-2019 at 08:12.

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  12. #26
    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeh375 View Post
    I thought this also about minor roots in BG's post MR. I assume BG is referring to the structure of the overtone series that constitutes a major triad in its initial overtones. Regardless of the theory though , minor chords are rooted to all intents and purposes and do not sound unresolved to composers.
    Baby Giraffe gets too stuck on the overtone series, without realizing that harmonic hierarchies can be created in other ways, not based on natural overtones, but nonetheless "effective" harmonically. That means our ears can be convinced.
    "The way out is through the door. Why is it that no one will use this method?"
    -Confucious

    "In Spring! In the creation of art it must be as it is in Spring!" -Arnold Schoenberg

    "We only become what we are by the radical and deep-seated refusal of that which others have made us." -Jean-Paul Sartre

    "I don't mind dying, as long as I can still breathe." ---Me

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