Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 17

Thread: C.M you need analogue to really experience the greatness of music,vocal music perhaps

  1. #1
    Senior Member deprofundis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    3,349
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    14

    Default C.M you need analogue to really experience the greatness of music,vocal music perhaps

    Ockay i notice orchestal stuff past the audio test most of the time , most instrumental music is ain't soul annihilated, overly compressed sound, i aknowledge there are good digital vocal music outhere in download.But sometime re-edition of vynil suffer quite a bit and it's sad, look exemple i.e archive produktion deutsch grammophone 50'' release re-edition in digital , ouch!!
    it make you wont the vynil desperatly even more, since the tracks list are awesome .

    Léonin
    Pérotin
    Guillaume de Machaut missa
    Dufay

    What a vynil to own probably extra thick in density of media itself,, a hudge chunk of vynil 300 grms of petrol, make me drool like a pavlov dog for sure.

    Sometime you listen to a digital record the were an LP and your angry the sound is sterilize.

    Look knowing what im talking i heard a lot of Palestrina , Gesualdo ,Palestrina and in analogue it's always bellissimo splendide mondo.Other im upset and feel like what did they done to the sound they killed the record ascepticized the sound oh man oh man oh man, you know the feeling?

    So i tend to preffered analogue for vocal music , but vynil interresting in my city, they never have wwhat i wont ,have to order everythink in europe or Britain.
    Costy sometime, but inevitable choice.

    Look if you want tangible proof, quantum physic proof, mensa passing test, than please try thee following get these 50'' alte musik= early music renaissance ,medieval and gregorian per. Now get an Usb record player , some are cheap to buy and dose good result whit good speakers.Now you will see for yourself ,what i'm trying to implement in this post digital kill the estethic sound of sexy analogue sound..

    live once, life short , live whit passion and music is the catalyst of it all- deprofundis quote

  2. Likes EddieRUKiddingVarese liked this post
  3. #2
    Senior Member bigshot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Hollywood U.S.A.
    Posts
    5,866
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default

    Huh? That's an impenetrable word salad!
    CD Sound Is All You Need: http://xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
    AES Audio Myths Seminar: http://youtu.be/BYTlN6wjcvQ
    AES Damn Lies Seminar: http://youtu.be/Zvireu2SGZM

  4. #3
    Senior Member joen_cph's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Cph, Denmark
    Posts
    5,215
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default

    I'm getting the meaning of the OP, all sentences I think. The spelling could just be improved somewhat. I haven't myself heard the mentioned cheap USB turntables producing a very good sound, however.
    Last edited by joen_cph; Apr-18-2019 at 21:26.

  5. Likes deprofundis liked this post
  6. #4
    Senior Member bigshot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Hollywood U.S.A.
    Posts
    5,866
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default

    Perhaps someone could translate. I don't have the patience.
    CD Sound Is All You Need: http://xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
    AES Audio Myths Seminar: http://youtu.be/BYTlN6wjcvQ
    AES Damn Lies Seminar: http://youtu.be/Zvireu2SGZM

  7. #5
    Senior Member joen_cph's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Cph, Denmark
    Posts
    5,215
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default

    Obviously, he's advocating for analogue vinyl sound for vocal (choral) music.

    It must be some sentences people don't understand - not all of it
    Last edited by joen_cph; Apr-19-2019 at 08:19.

  8. #6
    Senior Member Larkenfield's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Location
    Sedona
    Posts
    3,853
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    4

    Default

    In the beginning was the Analog Groove, not the souless digital bit rate, and the Groove was with God, and the Groove was God.
    Last edited by Larkenfield; Apr-19-2019 at 10:02.
    "That's all Folks!"

  9. Likes deprofundis liked this post
  10. #7
    Senior Member joen_cph's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Cph, Denmark
    Posts
    5,215
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default

    That's a groovy post indeed.

  11. Likes EddieRUKiddingVarese liked this post
  12. #8
    Senior Member deprofundis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    3,349
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    14

    Default

    Was this post so bad, sorry for syntax.The main idea was re edition of LP in digital usually awfull,, tthat you need a record player to experience the awesomeness oof vocal music, Big Shot dont be arrogant young man or insulting please , not all post are ardent success yah know.
    live once, life short , live whit passion and music is the catalyst of it all- deprofundis quote

  13. #9
    Senior Member bigshot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Hollywood U.S.A.
    Posts
    5,866
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default

    Whether or not an LP sounds better or worse than the CD reissue has everything to do with the condition of the masters and the quality of the mastering, and nothing at all to do with the format. Both CDs and vinyl are capable of sounding very good, but CDs have the edge over vinyl in every aspect of sound fidelity if the master is of a high quality.

    It's conceivable that the master tapes of a small label specialty recording might be in rough shape after fifty years. That might explain why a re-issue might sound poorer than the original release.
    CD Sound Is All You Need: http://xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
    AES Audio Myths Seminar: http://youtu.be/BYTlN6wjcvQ
    AES Damn Lies Seminar: http://youtu.be/Zvireu2SGZM

  14. #10
    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    12,559
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    137

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by deprofundis View Post
    Was this post so bad, sorry for syntax.The main idea was re edition of LP in digital usually awfull,, tthat you need a record player to experience the awesomeness oof vocal music, Big Shot dont be arrogant young man or insulting please , not all post are ardent success yah know.
    What you now need to be aware of, deprofundis, is that with Pulse-Density Modulation (PDM or Direct Stream) as your playback method, you can have an "analog" digital signal that sounds as good as vinyl, from your existing CDs as well!

    https://youtu.be/8oQz5_HVXxg
    "The way out is through the door. Why is it that no one will use this method?"
    -Confucious

    "In Spring! In the creation of art it must be as it is in Spring!" -Arnold Schoenberg

    "We only become what we are by the radical and deep-seated refusal of that which others have made us." -Jean-Paul Sartre

    "I don't mind dying, as long as I can still breathe." ---Me

  15. Likes deprofundis liked this post
  16. #11
    Senior Member bigshot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Hollywood U.S.A.
    Posts
    5,866
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default

    Sound quality with digital audio is determined by sampling and bit rate. Whether it's cached or streamed makes absolutely no audible difference whatsoever. In fact, caching is more likely to avoid under run and timing errors. But that really doesn't matter because it's unlikely to have problems with that anyway.

    Analog audio is capable of excellent sound, but it doesn't have as high fidelity as a redbook CD. You can easily test that by taking the best sounding LP you have and capturing it to CD, then comparing the capture to the LP itself in a direct A/B switched, line level matched, blind listening test. I've done this and there is no audible difference at all. Everything that is audible on an LP can be captured on a CD.
    Last edited by bigshot; Apr-28-2019 at 21:12.
    CD Sound Is All You Need: http://xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
    AES Audio Myths Seminar: http://youtu.be/BYTlN6wjcvQ
    AES Damn Lies Seminar: http://youtu.be/Zvireu2SGZM

  17. #12
    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    12,559
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    137

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bigshot View Post
    Sound quality with digital audio is determined by sampling and bit rate.
    No, there are other factors, too. PCM is 16-bit, or 24-bit, and so on. PDM (direct streaming) is only 1-bit. So it's misleading to infer that a higher bit-rate is "better" which I assume you are saying by throwing those numbers out there.

    Whether it's cached or streamed makes absolutely no audible difference whatsoever.
    That's ridiculous. What about SACD? It's streamed, and that's part of what makes it a high resolution format. Are you saying there is no audible difference between regular PCM CD and SACD?

    In fact, caching is more likely to avoid under run and timing errors.
    I think cacheing is more likely to present clocking errors, because it's a bigger piece of data than streaming. Clock jitter is unimportant in longer spans of time; what we need is accurate moment-to-moment clocking, as in streaming.

    But that really doesn't matter because it's unlikely to have problems with that anyway.
    That's false. All kinds of noise can cause jitter; RF interference, induction, power supply noise. That's why the best DACs have several power supplies which are isolated.

    Analog audio is capable of excellent sound, but it doesn't have as high fidelity as a redbook CD. You can easily test that by taking the best sounding LP you have and capturing it to CD, then comparing the capture to the LP itself in a direct A/B switched, line level matched, blind listening test.
    That would depend on the mastering of both LP and CD. I've got a German pressing of The Beatles' Magical Mystery Tour which sounds fantastic (on a good turntable with a good cartrige. Lots of variables!) because record cutting lathe technology had been improved.

    Then, I can hear differences in the old EMI/Parlophone CDs of that title, compared with the new remaster. Then compare isolated cuts like Strawberry Fields from the "1" remixes.

    I've done this and there is no audible difference at all. Everything that is audible on an LP can be captured on a CD.
    Not if the CD has "artifacts" caused by filtering at higher frequencies, called "aliasing," or if it's just a cheap CD player.
    Surely you must be joking, or are imprecise in what you are saying. You need to start telling us exactly and precisely what you mean, and stop with the off-the-wall generalizations.
    Last edited by millionrainbows; Apr-29-2019 at 15:52.
    "The way out is through the door. Why is it that no one will use this method?"
    -Confucious

    "In Spring! In the creation of art it must be as it is in Spring!" -Arnold Schoenberg

    "We only become what we are by the radical and deep-seated refusal of that which others have made us." -Jean-Paul Sartre

    "I don't mind dying, as long as I can still breathe." ---Me

  18. Likes Larkenfield liked this post
  19. #13
    Senior Member bigshot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Hollywood U.S.A.
    Posts
    5,866
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default

    Would you please ask a question without all the line by line quoting? I put together paragraphs with contexts. When you break it off line by line, you eliminate the context and your comments just become little more than argumentative rhetoric and irrelevant side tracks. For example, you quoted me saying "But that really doesn't matter because it's unlikely to have problems with that anyway." You reply, "This is false." What is false? What doesn't matter? What kind of problems? Who knows? You've eliminated all of the meaning and turned it onto a purely rhetorical argument by taking my comment completely out of its context. This kind of reply is what Monty Python made fun of in the Argument Clinic Sketch.

    Try replying without quoting line by line out of context.

    Now, how about we discuss one subject at a time. How about the Nyquist Theory? That seems to be a topic that you aren't fully aware of...

    Nyquist states that two sampling points can perfectly recreate a single waveform. A sampling rate of double the highest frequency you are trying to reproduce will perfectly reproduce all frequencies below that. Therefore a sampling rate of 44,100 (allowing for a little bit extra to allow for error in the lowpass filter) will perfectly reproduce all frequencies up to the limit of human hearing... 20kHz.

    Note that according to Nyquist that the waveform is *perfectly* reproduced. Adding more samples won't make it any better than perfect. Within the audible range of human hearing (20Hz to 20kHz) a CD has an IDENTICAL waveform to an SACD or 24/192 file. All of those data rates can PERFECTLY reproduce waveforms within the audible range. Waveforms are NOT stair stepped. It is *identical* to the original signal within the frequency range limits of the sampling rate. The signal coming from the mixing board is IDENTICAL to the signal passing out of your DAC to your amplifier.

    The only difference between higher sampling rates and lower ones is the highest frequency that can be perfectly reproduced. Therefore, a sampling rate of 192,000 can reproduce up to 96kHz, which is two octaves beyond the range of human hearing. Humans can't hear those two octaves. They can't even perceive it. It's like radio waves or infra red light. It is beyond our ability to perceive.

    The highest frequency that any human has ever been recorded as being able to perceive was about 24kHz. That was a 12 year old girl I believe. By the time she turned 20, she couldn't hear that high any more. Most adults don't hear much above 15 to 17kHz. Science picks 20kHz as the upper limit of human hearing, just to be safe. The designers of the CD chose 24kHz just to be a little more safe. You don't need any more than that.

    The biggest limiting factor in sound reproduction is human hearing is the ability of our human ears to hear. We can reproduce and measure sound to a quality level far beyond our ability to actually hear it. If you want to upgrade anything in your system, the best place to start would be with your ears, because your CD player and amp already produce better sound than you can possibly ever hear.

    If you have any questions related to Nyquist, I would be happy to answer it. If you understand what I'm saying, we can move on to different subjects. One thing at a time so everything is perfectly understandable before we move on.
    Last edited by bigshot; Apr-29-2019 at 18:08.
    CD Sound Is All You Need: http://xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
    AES Audio Myths Seminar: http://youtu.be/BYTlN6wjcvQ
    AES Damn Lies Seminar: http://youtu.be/Zvireu2SGZM

  20. Likes Robosan liked this post
  21. #14
    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    12,559
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    137

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bigshot View Post
    How about we discuss the Nyquist Theory? That seems to be a subject that you aren't fully aware of... Nyquist states that two sampling points can perfectly recreate a single waveform. A sampling rate of double the highest frequency you are trying to reproduce will perfectly reproduce all frequencies below that. Therefore a sampling rate of 44,100 (allowing for a little bit extra to allow for error in the lowpass filter) will perfectly reproduce all frequencies up to the limit of human hearing... 20kHz...Note that according to Nyquist that the waveform is *perfectly* reproduced. Adding more samples won't make it any better than perfect. The audible range on a CD (20Hz to 20kHz) has a waveform IDENTICAL to an SACD or 24/192 file. The waveform is NOT stair stepped. It is identical to the original signal within the frequency range limits of the sampling rate.

    That works in theory, but there is a little artifact called 'aliasing.' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliasing

    I think the human ear can hear jitter and clock error artifacts which don't show up on scopes, or whatever you are saying it is "identical" with. Also, what you are saying would invalidate the SACD and all higher sample rates. Any recording or mastering engineer would SCOFF at what you are saying.

    I'm beginning to think there's something "wrong" with your thinking. I won't go further...

    The only difference between higher sampling rates and lower ones is the highest frequency that can be perfectly reproduced. Therefore, a sampling rate of 192,000 can reproduce up to 96kHz, which is two octaves beyond the range of human hearing. Humans can't hear that. They can't even perceive it. The highest frequency that any human has ever been recorded as being able to perceive is between 24 and 28kHz.
    The range of audible human hearing is not the issue: alias artifacts are created in the audible range, because they are mathematically derived. If the sample rate is higher, these aliases can be driven into the upper inaudible range.

    The biggest limiting factor in sound reproduction is human hearing is the ability of our human ears to hear. We can reproduce and measure sound to a quality level far beyond our ability to actually hear it. If you want to upgrade anything in your system, the best place to start would be with your ears, because your CD player and amp already produce better sound than you can possibly ever hear.
    You can't hear the difference in quality of a cheap CD player vs. a good one? Surely you jest. I think your statement is misleading, because you are making "good sound" into a Platonic ideal, an "abstraction" which is logically true, but only in an ideal sense.
    Last edited by millionrainbows; Apr-29-2019 at 18:02.
    "The way out is through the door. Why is it that no one will use this method?"
    -Confucious

    "In Spring! In the creation of art it must be as it is in Spring!" -Arnold Schoenberg

    "We only become what we are by the radical and deep-seated refusal of that which others have made us." -Jean-Paul Sartre

    "I don't mind dying, as long as I can still breathe." ---Me

  22. Likes Larkenfield liked this post
  23. #15
    Senior Member bigshot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Hollywood U.S.A.
    Posts
    5,866
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default

    Reminder... I am only going to read your first comment as your main point. I won't get pulled off into tangents and line by line comments. One subject at a time. Put together organized paragraphs please. We solve one problem and then move on to another subject. Since you didn't address Nyquist and digital sampling as a perfect reproduction of waveforms, we can accept that as mutually agreed upon fact and move on. if that isn't the case, please address the Nyquist Theory first and disregard the things I discuss below. We can come back to that after we settle Nyquist.

    You bring up timing error... good point.

    What does jitter sound like?

    Do you know the threshold perception for jitter using tones? Can you relate the audibility of jitter using tones to the audibility of jitter in music?

    Can you provide me with a citation of audible timing error that can't be detected through measurements?

    Phase shift is another form of timing error. Do you happen to know the threshold of perception for that?

    Can you cite a specific make and model of audio component that has been proven to have audible levels of jitter?

    Feel free to answer each of these questions in separate paragraphs. I'll be happy to answer any of them that you have problems answering. Looking forward to your answer. Thanks!
    Last edited by bigshot; Apr-30-2019 at 08:40.
    CD Sound Is All You Need: http://xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
    AES Audio Myths Seminar: http://youtu.be/BYTlN6wjcvQ
    AES Damn Lies Seminar: http://youtu.be/Zvireu2SGZM

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •