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Thread: Fooling with Mother Nature

  1. #76
    Senior Member starthrower's Avatar
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    From what I was reading, the population explosion in parts of the third world won't even begin to slow up until mid century. It's not just about women's rights and education, there's the correlation between high infant mortality rates and fertility. Access to medical care and other positive factors are reducing the mortality rate but it's going to take time for things to level off. So it looks like the situation will get worse before it gets better. We'll all be dead by then so good luck to the future!
    Short-term thinkers are rewarded with reelection, while those who dare to take seriously our responsibility to future generations commonly find themselves out of office.

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  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange Magic View Post
    I actually have the capacity to differ from Garrett Hardin on the issue of the preferred way of retarding and reversing population growth, and have been consistently clear on the emancipation of women as both a proven and a humane way of dealing with the problem of continual population growth. The emancipation of women also has a profound moral and justice component. DrMike is, of course, silent on his solution, preferring to attack mine by attempting heroically but futilely to link me in lockstep with every utterance of Garrett Hardin. It's fun to see him try ; there is a growing hint of looking for something/anything to neutralize Hardin's diagnosis of the problem. For those interested, here are links to the Thailand/Philippines pairing:

    https://opinion.inquirer.net/106791/...ns-ph-thailand
    https://www.indexmundi.com/factbook/...s/demographics
    You misread me. If the population crisis is as dire as you say, then there is not enough time for your solution. If there is enough time to implement your solution, then the population crisis is not as dire as you claim. So which is it?
    My point with Hardin was that if the population crisis is truly as dire as you say, then his solution and draconian measures are they only way to possibly stop it in such a short time, if not even worse, like I described.

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  4. #78
    Senior Member Luchesi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacck View Post
    the flood was 12 000 years ago, when a comet impact caused a mini ice age. The subsequent ice melting could have cause a flood, that became the basis of some summerian myths, and the jews borrowed these myths from mesopotamia
    https://www.sciencealert.com/ancient...sation-forever
    The Noah's flood is scientifically impossible, so if people prefer morality stories about magical events then they can't be lifted up, because the impulse for 'believing' their OWN tradition's idiosyncratic and manipulative arguments is a primal response. Is it a conscious process?
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes - but the preservation of fire!
    Gustav Mahler

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  6. #79
    Senior Member Strange Magic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrMike View Post
    You misread me. If the population crisis is as dire as you say, then there is not enough time for your solution. If there is enough time to implement your solution, then the population crisis is not as dire as you claim. So which is it?
    My point with Hardin was that if the population crisis is truly as dire as you say, then his solution and draconian measures are they only way to possibly stop it in such a short time, if not even worse, like I described.
    I do not misread you. We both know exactly what I am saying and have said many times, in many places on TC. And you do not misread me though you feign confusion. There are no guarantees that the cancerous growth of population will be arrested and reversed in 12 years, or 20, or 50, or 100. My point is that, beyond both fear and hope, the sane and rational people of the world strive to their utmost to work for full female equality and autonomy, as we know it both works to stabilize and then reduce human populations, and the effort is morally required for its own sake
    Last edited by Strange Magic; May-10-2019 at 03:23.

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    Progress and innovation, modernizing societies. The things I want. Those have had a greater impact throughout history on improving the lot of people, especially women. You think some UN led campaign can do it better? Doubtful.

    Clearly the population apocalypse is not as dire as you claim. I suspect it is just fear mongering to get your preferred progressive policies passed.

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    Senior Member Fritz Kobus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luchesi View Post
    The Noah's flood is scientifically impossible, so if people prefer morality stories about magical events then they can't be lifted up, because the impulse for 'believing' their OWN tradition's idiosyncratic and manipulative arguments is a primal response. Is it a conscious process?
    You need to read this book. The evidence fits a recent, world-wide, catastrophic flood.
    Last edited by Fritz Kobus; May-10-2019 at 04:11.
    "All of Italian opera can be heard in [Bellini's] "Ah! non creda [mirarti]."
    --Renata Scotto in "Scotto, More Than a DIva."

  10. #82
    Senior Member Strange Magic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrMike View Post
    Clearly the population apocalypse is not as dire as you claim. I suspect it is just fear mongering to get your preferred progressive policies passed.
    Exposed at last! Yes, DrMike penetrates to the heart of the conspiracy. And it's a vast conspiracy of Socialist authoritarians who invented a population "problem" and linked it to AGW, habitat and species loss, and biosphere pollution in order to get "progressive policies" passed. It began with Malthus, added Harrison Brown and Albert Einstein, blossomed with Ehrlich and Hardin, and now has metastasized to include the world's scientific institutions and associations. This is a much more rational explanation than the one asserting that there is, in fact, a real crisis.
    Last edited by Strange Magic; May-10-2019 at 04:22.

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  12. #83
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    Foolish me, I thought Einstein was a physicist. Didn't realize he also had expertise in environmental science or ecology. The magical power of the Doctorate. By the way, can you provide us with a cheat sheet as to what aspects of Hardin we should fully believe and which we can mock derisively? You're the one who brings him into every one of these types of conversations.

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    Senior Member Larkenfield's Avatar
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    I see ecological challenges ahead! I know they mean well, but…



    Gee, perhaps just maybe, quite possibly, just taking a wild guess, a shot in the dark, more education on the impact of Homo sapiens on our global environment is needed in schools, starting from the ground up in kindergarten, or better yet, prenatally in the womb. Everything in nature is connected and so are we. In the meantime, as the Yoda of Baseball once said: “When you come to the fork in the road, take it!”
    Last edited by Larkenfield; May-10-2019 at 07:55.
    "That's all Folks!"

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    Senior Member KenOC's Avatar
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    Early agricultural societies were universally built along rivers and were subject to periodic floods, some severe. China has its own flood legend, far different from the Sumerian/Jewish version. The land flooded due to too much rain. Floodwaters were drained by an emperor using standard civil engineering methods -- raising levees to contain the rivers and digging canals to drain the land. This was about 2000 BCE.

    "The inundating waters seemed to assail the heavens, and in their extent embraced the hills and overtopped the great mounds, so that the people were bewildered and overwhelmed. I opened passages for the streams throughout the nine provinces and conducted them to the seas. I deepened the channels and conducted them to the streams." So saith the Great Yu. Lots more detail here.
    Last edited by KenOC; May-10-2019 at 04:48.


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  17. #86
    Senior Member Luchesi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fritz Kobus View Post
    You need to read this book. The evidence fits a recent, world-wide, catastrophic flood.

    I'm glad that you can accept this feel-good worldview. I'm not able to.
    I'd like to be like a religious person. Because I assume it's our natural and comfortable state of living, and so it always seems self-defeating to me to rebel against so many hundreds of thousands of years.

    And yet beyond that I actually think that for me, it would be disrespectful for me to so simplify a 'god's' creation.

    I do believe in something beyond current human understanding. Science is showing us a glimpse of it. The per unit strength of Dark Energy and the strength of the Higgs field are a revelation for figuring out a glimpse of our true reality.
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes - but the preservation of fire!
    Gustav Mahler

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    Senior Member Fritz Kobus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larkenfield View Post
    I see ecological challenges ahead! I know they mean well, but…



    Gee, perhaps just maybe, quite possibly, just taking a wild guess, a shot in the dark, more education on the impact of Homo sapiens on our global environment is needed in school, starting from the ground up in kindergarten, or better yet, prenatally in the womb. Everything in nature is connected and so are we. In the meantime, as the Yoda of Baseball once said: “When you come to the fork in the road, take it!”
    And these people vote!
    "All of Italian opera can be heard in [Bellini's] "Ah! non creda [mirarti]."
    --Renata Scotto in "Scotto, More Than a DIva."

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  20. #88
    Senior Member Strange Magic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrMike View Post
    Foolish me, I thought Einstein was a physicist. Didn't realize he also had expertise in environmental science or ecology. The magical power of the Doctorate. By the way, can you provide us with a cheat sheet as to what aspects of Hardin we should fully believe and which we can mock derisively? You're the one who brings him into every one of these types of conversations.
    No. No! Don't beat yourself up for failing to realize that Albert Einstein just may have been smarter than the average PhD and could read a well-researched generalist book written for an educated lay audience and understand it quickly and easily. I suspect I could also. Same with someone reading Hardin's The Tragedy of the Commons, were they possessed of even an average education. Such a person, even a PhD, would be able to puzzle out just what Hardin was saying, and form, like Einstein did with Brown's book, an opinion of the validity of Hardin's thesis, yet question aspects of Hardin's means for ameliorating the situation; means that he does not elaborate upon in the Tragedy. There, he writes only of the necessity (at some point) of renouncing the "freedom to breed". I have made clear my own alternate proposal.

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    So you have enough expertise to both decide where Hardin is and is not right, and to even correct him? But nobody else does? That is some hubris.

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  23. #90
    Senior Member Strange Magic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrMike View Post
    So you have enough expertise to both decide where Hardin is and is not right, and to even correct him? But nobody else does? That is some hubris.
    Who is saying that, exactly? I certainly claim the expertise; you do also--in fact, you led the way in "correcting" Hardin--not in most everyone's usual manner by offering alternatives, but in the DrMike manner--by saying, because Hardin's solution bothered you, his entire thesis was wrong (or is it correct now? With you one is never quite sure.). And, as usual, offering no alternatives.

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