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Thread: A Beatles song

  1. #16
    Senior Member EdwardBast's Avatar
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    What's funny to me isn't harmonically analyzing a Beatles tune, it's doing it with the wrong vocabulary. Those 7b9 chords are standard in blues and blues based rock. The writers should have just said that and given a couple of examples.

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  3. #17
    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flamencosketches View Post
    Hilarious. A great song, of course, but subjecting the vast majority of Rock music to such analysis is not going to yield you much as far as useful findings.
    Quote Originally Posted by Haydn70 View Post
    As flamencosketches wrote: "Hilarious".

    Yet another attempt to try to elevate rock music to the same level as art music. Such analyses are ridiculous. I can take even the simplest rock song (not that Taxman, with its three chords, is complicated at all) and apply the same process to it and dazzle the theory-ignorant masses.

    George says, speaking of his music: "It's not really, sort of, music, you know"...George knew the difference....
    Do you agree with this, Flamenco? Is this what you meant to say? I would have expected for you to respond by now, since somewhere I got the impression that you were involved with rock music, and also like Bartok (who did ethnomusical work on folk songs).

    I'm not sure what is being trashed here, the specific analysis or the analysis of rock, pop, and folk music, or rock music in general. I guess it's just an unfocussed free-for-all. There are contradictory posts which both praise The Beatles and trash them.

    If we invalidate all analysis of music outside the "high art" realm as ridiculous, we are also invalidating Bartok's work in this area, as well as Allan Forte's use of "Over the Rainbow" in his Yale theory classes.

    What about George Martin, the "fifth Beatle?" He was conservatory-trained, and in musical terms has great respect for The Beatles' music.

    The thread was ill-defined, attracted too many uninformed posts, and is generally a mess.
    Last edited by millionrainbows; May-14-2019 at 13:53.
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    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenOC View Post
    As I said, posted for amusement. I take it you are not amused.
    I will agree with EdwardBast's #16 that the analysis is laughable. Yes, KenOC posted this for amusement: his own amusement at the conflicting and contradictory nature of the reactions, which he probably predicted.
    That way he doesn't get trashed for any opinion he may have. Too bad he brought The Beatles into it, though. I would have thought he liked them.
    Last edited by millionrainbows; May-14-2019 at 14:01.
    "The way out is through the door. Why is it that no one will use this method?"
    -Confucious

    "In Spring! In the creation of art it must be as it is in Spring!" -Arnold Schoenberg

    "We only become what we are by the radical and deep-seated refusal of that which others have made us." -Jean-Paul Sartre

    "I don't mind dying, as long as I can still breathe." ---Me

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    Senior Member MacLeod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EdwardBast View Post
    What's funny to me isn't harmonically analyzing a Beatles tune, it's doing it with the wrong vocabulary. Those 7b9 chords are standard in blues and blues based rock. The writers should have just said that and given a couple of examples.
    It's also doing it without any accompanying insight. Even if the right vocabulary had been used, without some evaluation, it says nothing of any significance.
    "I left TC for a hiatus, but since no-one noticed my absence, I came back again."

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    Senior Member starthrower's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haydn70 View Post
    As flamencosketches wrote: "Hilarious".

    Yet another attempt to try to elevate rock music to the same level as art music. Such analyses are ridiculous. I can take even the simplest rock song (not that Taxman, with its three chords, is complicated at all) and apply the same process to it and dazzle the theory-ignorant masses.

    Here is George answering Cavett's question about whether he wished if he had studied composition (go to the 9'18" mark):



    And at 9'34" George says, speaking of his music: "It's not really, sort of, music, you know"

    George knew the difference....
    It's your assumption that this analysis is for the purposes of elevatimg pop music to the level of art music. It is also your conceit to insinuate one type of music is beneath another. Sure, George Harrison didn't think in these terms while creating a pop rock tune, but it can be useful for students who desire to understand what's going on from a technical standpoint. Of course this is no guarantee that it will provide the tools to write a great pop tune. That requires an imagination. And some knowledge of Harmony and chord / scales relationships doesn't hurt if you want to make things more interesting. Steely Dan tunes are a good example.
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  10. #21
    Senior Member KenOC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millionrainbows View Post
    I will agree with EdwardBast's #16 that the analysis is laughable. Yes, KenOC posted this for amusement: his own amusement at the conflicting and contradictory nature of the reactions, which he probably predicted.
    That way he doesn't get trashed for any opinion he may have. Too bad he brought The Beatles into it, though. I would have thought he liked them.
    No, my plans were far darker and more sinister than that. And they're working!


  11. #22
    Senior Member Haydn70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by starthrower View Post
    It's your assumption that this analysis is for the purposes of elevatimg pop music to the level of art music. It is also your conceit to insinuate one type of music is beneath another. Sure, George Harrison didn't think in these terms while creating a pop rock tune, but it can be useful for students who desire to understand what's going on from a technical standpoint. Of course this is no guarantee that it will provide the tools to write a great pop tune. That requires an imagination. And some knowledge of Harmony and chord / scales relationships doesn't hurt if you want to make things more interesting. Steely Dan tunes are a good example.
    And it is your conceit that all types of music are on the same level. Standoff.

    We will have to agree to disagree. Va bene?
    Last edited by Haydn70; May-14-2019 at 20:49.

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    Senior Member starthrower's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haydn70 View Post
    And it is your conceit that all types of music are on the same level. Standoff.

    We will have to agree to disagree. Va bene?
    I didn't say on the same level. They are just different. But I doubt anybody uses wiki to learn Beatles tunes, they learn them by ear, or cheat and read the guitar tab online or in magazines. Or watch somebody on YouTube who already figured it out.
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    Senior Member Haydn70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by starthrower View Post
    I didn't say on the same level. They are just different. But I doubt anybody uses wiki to learn Beatles tunes, they learn them by ear, or cheat and read the guitar tab online or in magazines. Or watch somebody on YouTube who already figured it out.
    Here is what you wrote:

    "It is also your conceit to insinuate one type of music is beneath another."

    The word "beneath" implies levels.

    I am the first to agree that rock and classical are different. And rock is beneath classical. Va bene?
    Last edited by Haydn70; May-14-2019 at 21:22.

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    Senior Member starthrower's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haydn70 View Post
    Here is what you wrote:

    "It is also your conceit to insinuate one type of music is beneath another."

    The word "beneath" implies levels.

    I am the first to agree that rock and classical are different. And rock is beneath classical. Va bene?
    Levels of what? Some view pop as "beneath" art music in a condescending implication which is fine if it makes them feel better. But I think what the wiki article proves is the person who wrote the entry was trying to look sophisticated. Pop music fans don't care. They like their favorite bands and that's it.
    Short-term thinkers are rewarded with reelection, while those who dare to take seriously our responsibility to future generations commonly find themselves out of office.

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  16. #26
    Senior Member Haydn70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by starthrower View Post
    Levels of what? Some view pop as "beneath" art music in a condescending implication which is fine if it makes them feel better. But I think what the wiki article proves is the person who wrote the entry was trying to look sophisticated. Pop music fans don't care. They like their favorite bands and that's it.
    Just as having the opposite, politically correct, egalitarian view makes other feel better.

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    Senior Member starthrower's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haydn70 View Post
    Just as having the opposite, politically correct, egalitarian view makes other feel better.
    I suppose, but I don't really think about it too much. I enjoy the Beatles or whoever when I'm listening to them, and the same for classical. Bartok said the only difference between himself and the folk musicians was a conservatory education. He had the knowledge to develop a basic musical idea into something on a symphonic scale and the folk musician didn't due to his/her lack of an education.
    Short-term thinkers are rewarded with reelection, while those who dare to take seriously our responsibility to future generations commonly find themselves out of office.

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  19. #28
    Senior Member EdwardBast's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by starthrower View Post
    I didn't say on the same level. They are just different. But I doubt anybody uses wiki to learn Beatles tunes, they learn them by ear, or cheat and read the guitar tab online or in magazines. Or watch somebody on YouTube who already figured it out.
    The whole Beatles' oeuvre is available in full score. I believe the guitar parts are in standard notation and tablature.

    What greater comfort does time afford than the objects of terror re-encountered and their fraudulence exposed in the flash of reason?
    — William Gaddis, The Recognitions

    Originality is a device untalented people use to impress other untalented people and to protect themselves from talented people.
    Basil Valentine

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  21. #29
    Senior Member starthrower's Avatar
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    The only song I ever learned was Blackbird, which is a nice one for fingerstyle guitar.
    Short-term thinkers are rewarded with reelection, while those who dare to take seriously our responsibility to future generations commonly find themselves out of office.

    - Marcia Bjornerud, Geologist

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  23. #30
    Senior Member Haydn70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EdwardBast View Post
    The whole Beatles' oeuvre is available in full score. I believe the guitar parts are in standard notation and tablature.
    Correct. All parts, guitars, bass, drums, keyboards, vocals, misc. instruments, everything.

    I was given the volume some years ago as a BD present. An impressive effort although there are two problems:

    1. The pages are small so it is impossible to read a few feet away on a music stand.
    2. There are mistakes. Some are forgivable (a wrong note here or there in a guitar solo) but others aren't such as wrong chords. No excuse for that.

    All in all, though, well worth having if you are Beatles fan, especially one who is a musician who wants to play their stuff live "like the record".

    BeatlesTC.JPG
    Last edited by Haydn70; May-14-2019 at 23:22.

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