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Thread: A Beatles song

  1. #31
    Senior Member Phil loves classical's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haydn70 View Post
    Here is what you wrote:

    "It is also your conceit to insinuate one type of music is beneath another."

    The word "beneath" implies levels.

    I am the first to agree that rock and classical are different. And rock is beneath classical. Va bene?
    I agree on paper. And no matter how they intellectualize by arranging pop tunes on string quartets, etc. as on the radio it can't match. But as a form of expressionistic art, it can be a real juggernaut, and its impact can be immense.
    "Forgive me, Majesty. I'm a vulgar man. But I assure you, my music is not.“ Mozart

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  3. #32
    Senior Member KenOC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil loves classical View Post
    I agree on paper. And no matter how they intellectualize by arranging pop tunes on string quartets, etc. as on the radio it can't match. But as a form of expressionistic art, it can be a real juggernaut, and its impact can be immense.
    Of course pop music has the relative advantage of reaching way, way more people than does "classical." Further, far more people find it relevant to their lives today. Can the same be said for Boulez or Babbitt?

    Lots of people like the classics of bygone generations, but that age has passed. There's almost none of it being written any more, outside of film scores.
    Last edited by KenOC; May-15-2019 at 03:29.


  4. #33
    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    I Want You (She's So Heavy) from WIK

    It begins in 6/8 time, with an arpeggio guitar theme in D minor, progressing through E7(♭9) and B♭7 before cadencing on an A augmented chord. In this chord sequence, the F note is a drone. The bass and lead guitar ascend and descend with a riff derived from the D minor scale. As the last chord fades, a verse begins in 4/4 time, based on the A and D blues scales, with Lennon singing "I want you / I want you so bad . . ." The two blues verses alternate, before the reappearance of the E7(♭9) chord, and McCartney playing a notably aggressive bass riff. This would function, throughout the song, as a transition to the main theme. The main theme repeats with Lennon singing "She's so heavy", with a long sustain on the last word. The second set of verses are rendered instrumentally with lead guitar. Another repeat of the "She's So Heavy" theme (this time featuring harmonies) is followed by Lennon singing a livelier repeat of the "I Want You" verse. During the next E7(♭9) transition, Lennon lets loose a primal scream of "Yeah", until his voice breaks. The song's coda consists of a three-minute repetition of the "She's So Heavy" theme, with the arpeggios double tracked, intensifying with "white noise" fading in as the theme continues; this consists of multi-tracked guitars from Lennon and Harrison, Moog white-noise from Lennon, and drums and bass from Starr and McCartney respectively until an abrupt ending.
    Amusing.
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  5. #34
    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenOC View Post
    Of course pop music has the relative advantage of reaching way, way more people than does "classical." Further, far more people find it relevant to their lives today. Can the same be said for Boulez or Babbitt?
    Does this mean you think Boulez and Babbitt are "high-art classical"? If not, you can't use them as examples.
    "The way out is through the door. Why is it that no one will use this method?"
    -Confucious

    "In Spring! In the creation of art it must be as it is in Spring!" -Arnold Schoenberg

    "We only become what we are by the radical and deep-seated refusal of that which others have made us." -Jean-Paul Sartre

    "I don't mind dying, as long as I can still breathe." ---Me

  6. #35
    Senior Member KenOC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millionrainbows View Post
    Does this mean you think Boulez and Babbitt are "high-art classical"? If not, you can't use them as examples.
    Sorry, I don't know what "high-art classical" is. I'm quite sure you can enlighten me.


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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeh375 View Post
    Funny. I doubt they cared at all about this Ken, which is the best attitude to have for a composer imv regardless of the genre...if it sounds good, go with it. Their's was a natural, gifted talent and I reckon if they knew a lot more theory, their music would have lost some of its efficacy.
    Totally depends on what you're writing.

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    Senior Member mikeh375's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereality View Post
    Totally depends on what you're writing.
    It does indeed. I've witnessed genuine concern by some, especially those using CP in popular music, that theory (rather, the learning of), can create tension in their creative process and stymie their natural inclinations, which may not always be for the better.

    Sometimes, the best personal results come unhindered and sometimes that free, unhindered spirit becomes innovative and influential, like the Fab4.

  9. #38
    Senior Member haydnguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tdc View Post
    Some interesting thoughts, thanks for posting it, but that said I think it over states The Beatles achievements. I can't agree with the idea that no composers of classical music would have continued to compose tonally without The Beatles. Sure, The Beatles probably had some influence across genres, but the same can be said for many classical composers. The Beatles do have some brilliant songs, but they don't ever develop into larger structures, so regardless of their innovations and influence I don't see them as comparable to composers like Beethoven or Wagner as this film suggests.

    I do see some of their songs as fairly sophisticated, perhaps even comparably sophisticated to some of the songs of classical composers but it requires more than composing songs to be considered among the best composers of the 20th century in my opinion. For me their music just doesn't have the depth to stand up to the best classical music, because it is too repetitive and simple in structure. I don't even think it should be compared directly to classical though because it is too different, and has different goals.

    Were The Beatles great composers of pop music? Definitely. Great composers of classical music? No. (Nor were they trying to be). I don't think these boundaries can be erased so easily as the film seems to suggest.
    Having grown up with popular music (including the Beatles) I have thought a lot about the differences (on the surface) between classical and popular music. One difference is that popular music does not normally focus on the person who wrote the music. The focus is on the performer. With the Beatles, the Lennon/McCartney team was front and center.

    I think George Martin had a lot more input into the development of their music than is normally discussed. A 19 year old from Liverpool with no musical training could not possibly of come up with the level of sophistication in those songs. When you look back on the pop/rock era, the Beatles might be the gold standard. Will they be another Beethoven? Maybe not. They may be to popular music what Glen Miller was to big band.
    Last edited by haydnguy; May-15-2019 at 10:02.

  10. #39
    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenOC View Post
    Sorry, I don't know what "high-art classical" is. I'm quite sure you can enlighten me.
    It's not my term. This post #4 established the idea of "high-art classical" early on:

    Quote Originally Posted by Haydn70 View Post
    Yet another attempt to try to elevate rock music to the same level as art music. Such analyses are ridiculous. I can take even the simplest rock song (not that Taxman, with its three chords, is complicated at all) and apply the same process to it and dazzle the theory-ignorant masses.
    Last edited by millionrainbows; May-15-2019 at 14:31.
    "The way out is through the door. Why is it that no one will use this method?"
    -Confucious

    "In Spring! In the creation of art it must be as it is in Spring!" -Arnold Schoenberg

    "We only become what we are by the radical and deep-seated refusal of that which others have made us." -Jean-Paul Sartre

    "I don't mind dying, as long as I can still breathe." ---Me

  11. #40
    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by haydnguy View Post
    I think George Martin had a lot more input into the development of their music than is normally discussed. A 19 year old from Liverpool with no musical training could not possibly of come up with the level of sophistication in those songs.
    I think this takes George Martin's influence too far, and becomes another way of invalidating The Beatles' talents and songwriting ability. They only needed him for string & orchestral arrangements, not song ideas.
    "The way out is through the door. Why is it that no one will use this method?"
    -Confucious

    "In Spring! In the creation of art it must be as it is in Spring!" -Arnold Schoenberg

    "We only become what we are by the radical and deep-seated refusal of that which others have made us." -Jean-Paul Sartre

    "I don't mind dying, as long as I can still breathe." ---Me

  12. #41
    Senior Member Room2201974's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by haydnguy View Post

    I think George Martin had a lot more input into the development of their music than is normally discussed. A 19 year old from Liverpool with no musical training could not possibly of come up with the level of sophistication in those songs.
    So George Martin as fifth Beatle and most important Beatle? I don't buy it. His WAR Factor is ahead of Ringo but clearly behind the other three.

    At 16 years of age Paul had already put in the Malcolm Gladwell 10,000 hour rule knowing, playing and singing the Great American Songbook along with English and American musical theatre. The 16 year old would write When I'm 64 as proof of his understanding of the genre. He and George would take busses all over Liverpool because they heard someone knew a new guitar chord that they didn't. He's listening to Little Richard, and meets John. A couple of 10,000 hour segments in Liverpool and Hamburg later......all under his belt at 19.

    It's a type of musical training that apparently has it's merits.
    "He who makes songs without feeling spoils both his words and his music. " ~ Guillaume de Machaut

    "Music that is born complex is not inherently better or worse than music that is born simple." ~ Aaron Copland.

  13. #42
    Senior Member EdwardBast's Avatar
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    George Martin had some skills as a composer. Here's one of his performed by Van der Graaf Generator:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGHat7IeNaA

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  15. #43
    Senior Member mikeh375's Avatar
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    Edward, did you know he also composed a lovely and humorous score for Yellow Submarine?....

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXTK...8gxDRvRl78OWjc

    and...on a personal note, he got me in trouble with my wife on her 40th birthday. With some friends, we'd booked a seat at a posh restaurant in London and were seated next to his table. Let's just say my attention wasn't always on the missus.... I also recorded at Air Studios a few times (his studio complex) and the greatest thrill was seeing the autographed ms of his string 4 tet arrangement to 'Yesterday' hanging on the wall.
    Last edited by mikeh375; May-18-2019 at 12:36.

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  17. #44
    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    George Martin played the piano solo at the bridge. He couldn't play it at the required pace because he wasn't an adept pianist, so they recorded it at a slower tempo and then increased the speed, which upped the pitch and resulted in a sound more like a harpsichord than a normal piano.

    Last edited by millionrainbows; May-18-2019 at 13:23.
    "The way out is through the door. Why is it that no one will use this method?"
    -Confucious

    "In Spring! In the creation of art it must be as it is in Spring!" -Arnold Schoenberg

    "We only become what we are by the radical and deep-seated refusal of that which others have made us." -Jean-Paul Sartre

    "I don't mind dying, as long as I can still breathe." ---Me

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