Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 54

Thread: Can you hear mastering in MP3s? I can.

  1. #16
    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    12,568
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    137

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by philoctetes View Post
    I gave up on these experts, and whenever they show up I laugh and leave. Let them believe what they want. It's not your loss.
    The problem is, bigshot is ALWAYS there. You can't even make a post without him showing up. He's admitted that he got kicked off another hi-fi forum for trolling. I've got the post where he admitted this in my blogs.
    "The way out is through the door. Why is it that no one will use this method?"
    -Confucious

    "In Spring! In the creation of art it must be as it is in Spring!" -Arnold Schoenberg

    "We only become what we are by the radical and deep-seated refusal of that which others have made us." -Jean-Paul Sartre

    "I don't mind dying, as long as I can still breathe." ---Me

  2. #17
    Senior Member jegreenwood's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    1,898
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by millionrainbows View Post
    The only instance of this that I have encountered was in the David Bowie Virgin remasters, which sounded overly-bright. Other than that, almost all remasters are better: all the Jeff Beck titles, all the Gentle Giant on Allucard, The Zappa Family remasters compared to Ryko, The new Beatles, Procol Harum, Joni Mitchell and all HDCD remasters, Neil Young, anything on Repertoire (Family, Dave Edmunds), etc.
    Try the Rolling Stones. As an example, the average dynamic range dropped from 14 to 6 in the recent remaster of Some Girls. I bought it and listened to it once. I'm glad to say, I kept my earlier disc.

    http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/li...bum=some+girls

    Confirmed by my JRiver audio analysis.

    And the 50th anniversary Sgt. Pepper isn't much better from a DR perspective.

  3. #18
    Senior Member bigshot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Hollywood U.S.A.
    Posts
    5,866
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by millionrainbows View Post
    The problem is, bigshot is ALWAYS there. You can't even make a post without him showing up. He's admitted that he got kicked off another hi-fi forum for trolling. I've got the post where he admitted this in my blogs.
    Boo hoo hoo. Are we supposed to feel sorry for you and let you just post anything you want, even if it's completely wrong? You run off and complain about me on your blog? Sheesh! Get a life.

    Quote Originally Posted by millionrainbows View Post
    Such as? Name the formats you think are "immune" to human brain/ear hearing.
    You can't complain that I reply and then directly ask me questions. In this case, you're safe, because I have no idea what you are asking. Slow down and think about what you say. Don't just react emotionally. We're having a conversation. Don't expect an echo chamber. If you tried to understand the concepts people are talking about instead of having to "win" the conversation or investing your ego in your comments, you might actually learn something useful on the internet.
    Last edited by bigshot; May-28-2019 at 17:00.
    CD Sound Is All You Need: http://xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
    AES Audio Myths Seminar: http://youtu.be/BYTlN6wjcvQ
    AES Damn Lies Seminar: http://youtu.be/Zvireu2SGZM

  4. #19
    Senior Member bigshot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Hollywood U.S.A.
    Posts
    5,866
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jegreenwood View Post
    Try the Rolling Stones. As an example, the average dynamic range dropped from 14 to 6 in the recent remaster of Some Girls.
    I think it was Street Fighting Man where the whole thing is totally remixed and sounds like a different song entirely. They took the phone futz off of Jagger's vocals, making him sound older, that midrange punch is gone from the EQ, and they slathered on digital reverbs to replace the slap backs and wire reverbs that gave 60s singles that unique ambience. The whole thing sounds much cleaner, but really wimpy and small. The Led Zeppelin remasters are all really soft sounding for the same reasons.

    The best sounding Stones stuff is the Mono Box. Those haven't been totally reworked.

    By the way, there's a lot to dynamics. Sound can be compressed in many ways. It's a creative choice, and how compression is applied is actually more important than how much. More dynamics isn't necessarily better. Those apps that spit out a number don't measure all of what might be going on in a track. They can be fooled by things other than compression. They're a pretty crude approximation in fact. I don't put much faith in them.
    Last edited by bigshot; May-28-2019 at 16:34.
    CD Sound Is All You Need: http://xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
    AES Audio Myths Seminar: http://youtu.be/BYTlN6wjcvQ
    AES Damn Lies Seminar: http://youtu.be/Zvireu2SGZM

  5. #20
    Senior Member apricissimus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Malden, MA, USA
    Posts
    608
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by millionrainbows View Post
    It's "arguing over nothing" because bigshot hasn't made one of his "definitive" statements about how "all digital sounds the same, "bits is bits," etc....YET. I'm sure he'll figure out a way to invalidate anyone who thinks a higher-res remastering on newer equipment is due to "other factors." It couldn't be due to an improvement in digital, according to him.
    Remastering isn't just about higher resolution. It about making different aesthetic choices in how you present the music. Which is why I find the whole premise of this thread bizarre.

  6. Likes jegreenwood, Hugo9000 liked this post
  7. #21
    Senior Member philoctetes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Posts
    992
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by millionrainbows View Post
    The problem is, bigshot is ALWAYS there. You can't even make a post without him showing up. He's admitted that he got kicked off another hi-fi forum for trolling. I've got the post where he admitted this in my blogs.
    It's so obvious nobody needs confirmation.

  8. Likes millionrainbows liked this post
  9. #22
    Senior Member bigshot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Hollywood U.S.A.
    Posts
    5,866
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by apricissimus View Post
    Remastering isn't just about higher resolution. It about making different aesthetic choices in how you present the music. Which is why I find the whole premise of this thread bizarre.
    That's absolutely correct. When you see "24 bit remastered" on the cover of a CD, you're still getting a 16 bit CD. Bitrate isn't the issue, the fact that it has been remastered is. Remastering is a creative choice intended to serve a specific audience. Classical music is mixed and mastered to be heard on full range speakers in the home. It has a wider dynamic range and has a balanced response curve. It's also designed to be listened to all the way from beginning to end.

    Pop music is listened to differently than that. Playback is usually shuffled as songs. So if you master an album with overall dynamics across the whole album, the relative balances between songs gets mixed up on shuffle mode playback and you end up with some songs that are way too loud and the next random selection might be way too soft. Since they don't know the order you will be listening to the songs in, they raise them all to the same basic volume and compression level. Pop music is listened to on the go with earbuds. There is going to be traffic noise, so very quiet passages might get lost. And earbuds tend to not have great low bass, so the add a mid bass hump to give the feeling of bass when there's no sub bass.

    None of this is intrinsically good or evil. It's just different standards for different purposes. A compressed pop music mastering doesn't sound good on a home speaker system, but a classical mix doesn't sound good on an iPhone with earbuds either. If you ask people who know, they can point you to the mastering that works for your particular purpose. You can also employ digital signal processing in the car or mobile to lessen the dynamic extremes so it sounds better on the go.
    Last edited by bigshot; May-28-2019 at 16:58.
    CD Sound Is All You Need: http://xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
    AES Audio Myths Seminar: http://youtu.be/BYTlN6wjcvQ
    AES Damn Lies Seminar: http://youtu.be/Zvireu2SGZM

  10. #23
    Senior Member starthrower's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Syracuse, NY USA
    Posts
    10,144
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by millionrainbows View Post
    The only instance of this that I have encountered was in the David Bowie Virgin remasters, which sounded overly-bright. Other than that, almost all remasters are better: all the Jeff Beck titles, all the Gentle Giant on Allucard, The Zappa Family remasters compared to Ryko, The new Beatles, Procol Harum, Joni Mitchell and all HDCD remasters, Neil Young, anything on Repertoire (Family, Dave Edmunds), etc.
    You're siting examples where they got it right for the most part. To my ears the Joni Mitchell re-masters do not sound better. Neither do some of the prog rock titles. The Genesis remasters from a dozen years ago sound horrible. Many of the Zappa titles reverted to the original analog mixes, so it was more than just mastering. And to my ears some of them sound a bit tubby in the bass.

    Bigshot stated that different approaches to mastering are used for target audiences, so why are many of the classic 70s albums listened to by older people on audio systems re-mastered with bright, brick walled dynamics?
    Short-term thinkers are rewarded with reelection, while those who dare to take seriously our responsibility to future generations commonly find themselves out of office.

    - Marcia Bjornerud, Geologist

  11. #24
    Senior Member jegreenwood's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    1,898
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by starthrower View Post
    You're siting examples where they got it right for the most part. To my ears the Joni Mitchell re-masters do not sound better. Neither do some of the prog rock titles. The Genesis remasters from a dozen years ago sound horrible. Many of the Zappa titles reverted to the original analog mixes, so it was more than just mastering. And to my ears some of them sound a bit tubby in the bass.

    Bigshot stated that different approaches to mastering are used for target audiences, so why are many of the classic 70s albums listened to by older people on audio systems re-mastered with bright, brick walled dynamics?
    Because like me (age 67) we believed in new and improved - for a while.

  12. Likes starthrower liked this post
  13. #25
    Senior Member starthrower's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Syracuse, NY USA
    Posts
    10,144
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jegreenwood View Post
    Because like me (age 67) we believed in new and improved - for a while.
    And a lot of people got rid of their better sounding older CDs to buy into the remaster swindle, so you can find them on ebay and discogs instead of buying the new crappy sounding editions.
    Short-term thinkers are rewarded with reelection, while those who dare to take seriously our responsibility to future generations commonly find themselves out of office.

    - Marcia Bjornerud, Geologist

  14. #26
    Senior Member bigshot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Hollywood U.S.A.
    Posts
    5,866
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by starthrower View Post
    Bigshot stated that different approaches to mastering are used for target audiences, so why are many of the classic 70s albums listened to by older people on audio systems re-mastered with bright, brick walled dynamics?
    Because the old timers bought CDs in the 80s and then stopped. The young kids exploring retro started buying in the 2000s to put on their iPods in shuffle play... now no one is buying. Everyone is streaming or buying MP3 downloads a song at a time, rather than entire albums. The stuff in print on CD is all over the map.

    Another problem is the condition of the masters. Not all of the 70s and 80s stuff was cared for properly. Often they have to bake the master to prevent oxide shedding. They do a straight digital transfer and then chuck the original master in the deepest archive they can find. Sometimes the LP, mastered when the tapes were young, sounds better than the CD. It all depends.

    I read the other day that Dolby is pairing up with Universal Music to do multichannel mixes of hits in their library. And the rumor is that they are going to form a multichannel music streaming service. That will add another mix/master to the mix.

    Remasters aren't all bad. The David Bowie catalog is a million times better than those old RCA Dynaflex LPs. And Sony has done some fantastic work with their classical library. There are good remasters and bad ones... and an awful lot that say "24 bit remastered" on the cover but sound exactly the same. You have to talk to someone who has heard and compared to know which version to buy.
    Last edited by bigshot; May-28-2019 at 23:09.
    CD Sound Is All You Need: http://xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
    AES Audio Myths Seminar: http://youtu.be/BYTlN6wjcvQ
    AES Damn Lies Seminar: http://youtu.be/Zvireu2SGZM

  15. Likes eljr, starthrower, gopack87 liked this post
  16. #27
    Senior Member starthrower's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Syracuse, NY USA
    Posts
    10,144
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    I bought all the 70s Bowie re-masters and they sound fine. And Sony Legacy has done a great job on many of the re-masters. I recently bought the first two BST, and Jaco Pastorius s/t and they sound great!
    Short-term thinkers are rewarded with reelection, while those who dare to take seriously our responsibility to future generations commonly find themselves out of office.

    - Marcia Bjornerud, Geologist

  17. #28
    Senior Member jegreenwood's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    1,898
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by starthrower View Post
    I bought all the 70s Bowie re-masters and they sound fine. And Sony Legacy has done a great job on many of the re-masters. I recently bought the first two BST, and Jaco Pastorius s/t and they sound great!
    It's certainly hit or miss.

    p.s. I've spent some time on that other forum. Don't let them get started on Layla.
    Last edited by jegreenwood; May-29-2019 at 01:38.

  18. #29
    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    12,568
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    137

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bigshot View Post
    That's absolutely correct. When you see "24 bit remastered" on the cover of a CD, you're still getting a 16 bit CD. Bitrate isn't the issue, the fact that it has been remastered is. Remastering is a creative choice intended to serve a specific audience. Classical music is mixed and mastered to be heard on full range speakers in the home. It has a wider dynamic range and has a balanced response curve. It's also designed to be listened to all the way from beginning to end.

    Pop music is listened to differently than that. Playback is usually shuffled as songs. So if you master an album with overall dynamics across the whole album, the relative balances between songs gets mixed up on shuffle mode playback and you end up with some songs that are way too loud and the next random selection might be way too soft. Since they don't know the order you will be listening to the songs in, they raise them all to the same basic volume and compression level. Pop music is listened to on the go with earbuds. There is going to be traffic noise, so very quiet passages might get lost. And earbuds tend to not have great low bass, so the add a mid bass hump to give the feeling of bass when there's no sub bass.

    None of this is intrinsically good or evil. It's just different standards for different purposes. A compressed pop music mastering doesn't sound good on a home speaker system, but a classical mix doesn't sound good on an iPhone with earbuds either. If you ask people who know, they can point you to the mastering that works for your particular purpose. You can also employ digital signal processing in the car or mobile to lessen the dynamic extremes so it sounds better on the go.
    It sounds like you have made some compromises to remastering that I haven't; and you've made all the wrong choices.
    "The way out is through the door. Why is it that no one will use this method?"
    -Confucious

    "In Spring! In the creation of art it must be as it is in Spring!" -Arnold Schoenberg

    "We only become what we are by the radical and deep-seated refusal of that which others have made us." -Jean-Paul Sartre

    "I don't mind dying, as long as I can still breathe." ---Me

  19. #30
    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    12,568
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    137

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by starthrower View Post
    I bought all the 70s Bowie re-masters and they sound fine. And Sony Legacy has done a great job on many of the re-masters. I recently bought the first two BST, and Jaco Pastorius s/t and they sound great!
    Which Bowie remasters are you talking about? Two came out in rather quick succession, and the same thing with Yes.
    "The way out is through the door. Why is it that no one will use this method?"
    -Confucious

    "In Spring! In the creation of art it must be as it is in Spring!" -Arnold Schoenberg

    "We only become what we are by the radical and deep-seated refusal of that which others have made us." -Jean-Paul Sartre

    "I don't mind dying, as long as I can still breathe." ---Me

Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •