Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 50

Thread: Salieri in the New Yorker

  1. #31
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    San Francisco
    Posts
    1,145
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by stomanek View Post
    I'm afraid his revival is fuelled by interest in his association with Mozart and of course the film and play.

    I've hears some of his opera - and his requiem is not bad. But let's not get carried away - until Amadeus he was firmly buried in musical history and with good reason.
    I disagree with you wholeheartedly. Amadeus didn’t do Salieri any favors. There is a resurgence in him work because he was a very good composer in his own right. The operas recording by Rousset are very good operas. I love Danaïdes and Tarare is absolutely fantastic. The Harmonia recording of La scoula de’ gelosi is also a wonderful work. I also like Falstaff.

    Mozart destroyed all other late 18th century, early 19th century Classical Period opera composers. Beethoven, Mozart and Schubert are my big three, but I am so thankful to Rousset and Talens Lyriques for championing the works of Salieri - they are well worth exploring. I have listened to Tarare no stop since it was released Friday.
    Follow me on Instragam: figaro_under_the_moonlight.

  2. Likes Meyerbeer Smith liked this post
  3. #32
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    San Francisco
    Posts
    1,145
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AeolianStrains View Post
    He was buried because he was unfortunately wedged between giants around him, and because the slanders began immediately. Well before Amadeus there was Pushkin.
    Exactly. He was no a mediocrity in the least. History screwed him and it is really unfortunate. He was without a doubt one of the best composers of his period. Best would without a doubt be Mozart, but Salieri was a fine composer.

    He had absolutely no reason to be envious of Mozart. However wrong it may have been he was far more revered during their time in Vienna than Mozart was.

    Amadeus transformed classical music from an interest to a passion. Now I hate Peter Shaffer. Him turning Mozart into a buffoon, Joseph II (who was very progressive, enlightened and musically smart man) into a moron, and Salieri into a loser. It’s unforgivable, because like me when I first saw it, most of the audience isn’t going to know how absolutely wrong his portrayals of these three figures were.
    Follow me on Instragam: figaro_under_the_moonlight.

  4. Likes Meyerbeer Smith liked this post
  5. #33
    Senior Member Meyerbeer Smith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    2,212
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    5

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gellio View Post
    Amadeus transformed classical music from an interest to a passion. Now I hate Peter Shaffer. Him turning Mozart into a buffoon, Joseph II (who was very progressive, enlightened and musically smart man) into a moron, and Salieri into a loser. It’s unforgivable, because like me when I first saw it, most of the audience isn’t going to know how absolutely wrong his portrayals of these three figures were.
    Yes, a lot of people think that Shaffer's play is true. I attended a concert performance of Mozart and Salieri's joint cantata " Per la Ricuperata Salute di Ofelia" - and several people were astonished. Weren't they enemies? Wasn't Salieri mediocre? Didn't he kill Mozart? They'd seen Amadeus.

  6. #34
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    San Francisco
    Posts
    1,145
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Shatterhand View Post
    Yes, a lot of people think that Shaffer's play is true. I attended a concert performance of Mozart and Salieri's joint cantata " Per la Ricuperata Salute di Ofelia" - and several people were astonished. Weren't they enemies? Wasn't Salieri mediocre? Didn't he kill Mozart? They'd seen Amadeus.
    Exactly. You don’t know what you don’t know. Do I think Mozart was a better opera composer than Salieri? Of course. But, I think Mozart was a superior composer compared to everyone - Rossini, Puccini, Wagner and Verdi. All of them. He was simply beyond compare IMO. Other than Mozart’s work, the only other 18th Century Classical Period operas in the standard repertoire are those of Gluck. It is such a shame, because I think the works of Salieri, Cimarosa and Martin y Soler are fantastic. I hope we see more and more forgotten composers works return. I love discovering forgotten works, because there are so many wonderful discoveries out there, including those by Salieri.

    It’s interesting also to see the influence Salieri had on Mozart and visa-versa. Cosi fan tutte was definitely influenced by La grotta di Trofonio and Falstaff was absolutely influenced by Le nozze di Figaro, which was being revived when Salieri was writing Falstaff. That doesn’t speak to two composers who were enemies. That doesn’t speak to one composer thinking he is superior to another. That speaks of mutual admiration and respect between them.
    Last edited by gellio; Jun-10-2019 at 05:43.
    Follow me on Instragam: figaro_under_the_moonlight.

  7. Likes Meyerbeer Smith liked this post
  8. #35
    Senior Member PlaySalieri's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    3,581
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gellio View Post
    Exactly. He was no a mediocrity in the least. History screwed him and it is really unfortunate. He was without a doubt one of the best composers of his period. Best would without a doubt be Mozart, but Salieri was a fine composer.

    He had absolutely no reason to be envious of Mozart. However wrong it may have been he was far more revered during their time in Vienna than Mozart was.

    Amadeus transformed classical music from an interest to a passion. Now I hate Peter Shaffer. Him turning Mozart into a buffoon, Joseph II (who was very progressive, enlightened and musically smart man) into a moron, and Salieri into a loser. It’s unforgivable, because like me when I first saw it, most of the audience isn’t going to know how absolutely wrong his portrayals of these three figures were.
    The film does not portray Salieri as a loser. Salieri is reflecting with bitterness. He had all the fame and success - which he well acknowledges - but he lacked genius.

    "Can you recall no melody of mine? I was the most famous composer in Europe!"

    quote from the film.

    By his own standards next to Mozart he considered himself to be a failure - thats a very different thing from what you are saying.

    Maybe Salieri is a better composer than I have given him credit. I would need to spend some serious time listening. I have dabbled here and there mostly on youtube. I quite like the snippets which appear in Amadeus.
    Last edited by PlaySalieri; Jun-11-2019 at 07:09.

  9. #36
    Senior Member PlaySalieri's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    3,581
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gellio View Post
    Exactly. You don’t know what you don’t know. Do I think Mozart was a better opera composer than Salieri? Of course. But, I think Mozart was a superior composer compared to everyone - Rossini, Puccini, Wagner and Verdi. All of them. He was simply beyond compare IMO. Other than Mozart’s work, the only other 18th Century Classical Period operas in the standard repertoire are those of Gluck. It is such a shame, because I think the works of Salieri, Cimarosa and Martin y Soler are fantastic. I hope we see more and more forgotten composers works return. I love discovering forgotten works, because there are so many wonderful discoveries out there, including those by Salieri.

    It’s interesting also to see the influence Salieri had on Mozart and visa-versa. Cosi fan tutte was definitely influenced by La grotta di Trofonio and Falstaff was absolutely influenced by Le nozze di Figaro, which was being revived when Salieri was writing Falstaff. That doesn’t speak to two composers who were enemies. That doesn’t speak to one composer thinking he is superior to another. That speaks of mutual admiration and respect between them.
    OK - but I find it persuasive to believe that Salieri, in his position - wanted to keep Mozart out of the royal court. The emperor was very well disposed towards Mozart and it's baffling that he was never offered a lucrative position under his reign. Maybe all the positions were already filled - but they could have created one for him. Or perhaps it was that they considered him and Constanze were not the class of people they wanted in the royal court.

  10. #37
    Senior Member Larkenfield's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Location
    Sedona
    Posts
    4,272
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    4

    Default

    It didn't help Mozart's cause and probably fueled his anger that the aristocracy in Austria favored Italian composers, including Salieri, over their own homegrown variety. He may simply have been a prophet without honor save in his own country, but it doesn't seem to have occurred to him.
    Last edited by Larkenfield; Jun-11-2019 at 18:29.
    "That's all Folks!"

  11. Likes The Conte liked this post
  12. #38
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    San Francisco
    Posts
    1,145
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by stomanek View Post
    OK - but I find it persuasive to believe that Salieri, in his position - wanted to keep Mozart out of the royal court. The emperor was very well disposed towards Mozart and it's baffling that he was never offered a lucrative position under his reign. Maybe all the positions were already filled - but they could have created one for him. Or perhaps it was that they considered him and Constanze were not the class of people they wanted in the royal court.
    I agree it is baffling he was never offered a position. I think it was merely for the fact that perhaps he wasn't viewed as a great composer during or popular (with the Viennese) during his lifetime. Figaro received only what - 9 performances and it was withdrawn? That's my favorite opera. I consider it the best ever written. When I first discovered it, I listened to only it for months and months. People have different tastes, and it seems as though while Mozart was in Vienna, Salieri, Martin y Soler, and others were more popular, or perhaps viewed as better composers. I don't know. I have friends who would rather listen to Miley Cyrus than Mozart, which I find utterly baffling, so who knows.
    Follow me on Instragam: figaro_under_the_moonlight.

  13. #39
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    San Francisco
    Posts
    1,145
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by stomanek View Post
    The film does not portray Salieri as a loser. Salieri is reflecting with bitterness. He had all the fame and success - which he well acknowledges - but he lacked genius.

    "Can you recall no melody of mine? I was the most famous composer in Europe!"

    quote from the film.

    By his own standards next to Mozart he considered himself to be a failure - thats a very different thing from what you are saying.

    Maybe Salieri is a better composer than I have given him credit. I would need to spend some serious time listening. I have dabbled here and there mostly on youtube. I quite like the snippets which appear in Amadeus.
    Fair enough. But Shaffer definitely vilified him. He also portrayed Mozart as a buffoon and cheater, and Joseph II a complete moron. None of which was true.

    I just don't think Salieri would have ever actually felt threatened by Mozart or jealous of Mozart. He was much more revered during the time they were both in Vienna. I don't think he would have considered himself a failure next to Mozart. They each seemed to have appreciated each others talents. We don't really know the extent of their relationship or what Salieri or Mozart's inner thinkings were.

    I hope you will explore some of Salieri's works. The recordings by Rousset are fantastic - all four of them (La grotta di Trofonio, Les Danaides, Les Horaces and Tarare). The Harmonia Mundi recording of La scoula de' gelosi is top notch too. My favorite Salieri opera is probably Falstaff and the Tamas Pal recording is pretty good. I think the best recording is Tarare and the most exciting is Danaides - the closing chorus is magnificent.

    Because of Mozart, a lot of great works left the repertoire. That's really such a shame, but understandable, considering Mozart's works were so much greater, but that doesn't mean there aren't dozens of enjoyable works out there. I have been listening to Tarare non-stop since Friday. Really enjoyable.
    Last edited by gellio; Jun-11-2019 at 18:22.
    Follow me on Instragam: figaro_under_the_moonlight.

  14. Likes Meyerbeer Smith liked this post
  15. #40
    Senior Member KenOC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    SoCal, USA
    Posts
    20,009
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Larkenfield View Post
    It didn't help Mozart's cause and probably fueled his anger that the aristocracy in Austria favored Italian composers, including Salieri, over their own homegrown variety, He may simply have been a prophet without honor save in his own country, but it doesn't seem to have occurred to him.
    I suspect Mozart resented the elevation of less capable Italians over his own stuff. In a letter to his father he wrote, "All Italians are charlatans," which seems to betray a snarky ill-feeling.


  16. Likes gellio liked this post
  17. #41
    Senior Member PlaySalieri's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    3,581
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gellio View Post
    I agree it is baffling he was never offered a position. I think it was merely for the fact that perhaps he wasn't viewed as a great composer during or popular (with the Viennese) during his lifetime. Figaro received only what - 9 performances and it was withdrawn? That's my favorite opera. I consider it the best ever written. When I first discovered it, I listened to only it for months and months. People have different tastes, and it seems as though while Mozart was in Vienna, Salieri, Martin y Soler, and others were more popular, or perhaps viewed as better composers. I don't know. I have friends who would rather listen to Miley Cyrus than Mozart, which I find utterly baffling, so who knows.
    Im not sure - there is a lot of evidence that in he professional world of music - Mozart was regarded as the best composer until Beethoven. There are early reviews of Beethoven - looking back to Mozart as the example to follow after - nobody talks about Salieri then.

  18. #42
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    San Francisco
    Posts
    1,145
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by stomanek View Post
    Im not sure - there is a lot of evidence that in he professional world of music - Mozart was regarded as the best composer until Beethoven. There are early reviews of Beethoven - looking back to Mozart as the example to follow after - nobody talks about Salieri then.
    I would agree with you. Beethoven is my #1 and I have read things he has said about Mozart. I would think most composers could and would have recognized Mozart's talent over that of almost every other composer.

    What I'm talking about is the emperor, those in charge of musical decisions at court, and the people. It is them that I am not sure recognized Mozart's divine talent. It is in their eyes that Mozart may not have been deemed a great composer. It is with them that perhaps Salieri and other composers were held higher regard. When you look at the response to operas like Una cosa rara, La grotta di Trofonio and Axur in comparison to Figaro I may be on to something. It is baffling to me that Figaro - the opera I consider the greatest of them all - came and went so quickly with little fanfare, while these other operas were major hits.

    While there is much to enjoy in the crappy recording of [I]Una cosa rara/I], I absolutely love Trofonio, Danaides, La scoula de' gelosi and Tarare, and other works by composers of Mozart's time, they were no Mozart.

    If you want to try Salieri, Rousset's Danaides is the way to go. Listened to it yesterday. It really is a masterpiece.
    Last edited by gellio; Jun-13-2019 at 21:56.
    Follow me on Instragam: figaro_under_the_moonlight.

  19. Likes Meyerbeer Smith liked this post
  20. #43
    Senior Member PlaySalieri's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    3,581
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gellio View Post
    I would agree with you. Beethoven is my #1 and I have read things he has said about Mozart. I would think most composers could and would have recognized Mozart's talent over that of almost every other composer.

    What I'm talking about is the emperor, those in charge of musical decisions at court, and the people. It is them that I am not sure recognized Mozart's divine talent. It is in their eyes that Mozart may not have been deemed a great composer. It is with them that perhaps Salieri and other composers were held higher regard. When you look at the response to operas like Una cosa rara, La grotta di Trofonio and Axur in comparison to Figaro I may be on to something. It is baffling to me that Figaro - the opera I consider the greatest of them all - came and went so quickly with little fanfare, while these other operas were major hits.

    While there is much to enjoy in the crappy recording of [I]Una cosa rara/I], I absolutely love Trofonio, Danaides, La scoula de' gelosi and Tarare, and other works by composers of Mozart's time, they were no Mozart.

    If you want to try Salieri, Rousset's Danaides is the way to go. Listened to it yesterday. It really is a masterpiece.
    There are some anecdotes regarding the emperor crying out "Bravo Mozart" at one of his concerts. But there is little else otherwise. Along with the general Viennese he seems to have preferred other composers. Figaro was not a big hit in Vienna - but it was in Prague. Otherwise I am as baffled as you are. But then Carmen was slammed as rubbish when it first appeared. I am afraid that it takes time for posterity to sort out the wheat from the chaff where art is concerned since there are other factors at play in the times in which works appear. There are exceptions - Beethoven was rated in his time and every time since. Coming back to Salieri - just having read the wikipedia entry - seems he had failures too - operas that appeared and vanished quickly.

  21. #44
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    San Francisco
    Posts
    1,145
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by stomanek View Post
    There are some anecdotes regarding the emperor crying out "Bravo Mozart" at one of his concerts. But there is little else otherwise. Along with the general Viennese he seems to have preferred other composers. Figaro was not a big hit in Vienna - but it was in Prague. Otherwise I am as baffled as you are. But then Carmen was slammed as rubbish when it first appeared. I am afraid that it takes time for posterity to sort out the wheat from the chaff where art is concerned since there are other factors at play in the times in which works appear. There are exceptions - Beethoven was rated in his time and every time since. Coming back to Salieri - just having read the wikipedia entry - seems he had failures too - operas that appeared and vanished quickly.
    Yes, I know about Prague. It's one of my favorite cities, so was a thrill to see the theater where Don Giovanni premiered. I believe the massive success of Figaro there prompted Mozart to say, "My Pragers, they understand me." Yes, Salieri did have failures, but it is still astounding that Vienna didn't go nuts for Figaro - it is just the best. If it was a failure in Vienna, it was the greatest failure ever. I will never get enough of it.
    Follow me on Instragam: figaro_under_the_moonlight.

  22. #45
    Senior Member PlaySalieri's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    3,581
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gellio View Post
    Yes, I know about Prague. It's one of my favorite cities, so was a thrill to see the theater where Don Giovanni premiered. I believe the massive success of Figaro there prompted Mozart to say, "My Pragers, they understand me." Yes, Salieri did have failures, but it is still astounding that Vienna didn't go nuts for Figaro - it is just the best. If it was a failure in Vienna, it was the greatest failure ever. I will never get enough of it.
    Its astounding that Vienna didn't go nuts for Mozart - period.

    It did eventually of course.

Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •