Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 50

Thread: Salieri in the New Yorker

  1. #1
    Senior Member Meyerbeer Smith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    2,212
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    5

    Default Salieri in the New Yorker

    Excellent piece by Alex Ross on a sympathetic, underrated composer:

    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2...lieris-revenge

  2. Likes marceliotstein, Woodduck, ldiat liked this post
  3. #2
    Senior Member PlaySalieri's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    3,581
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Shatterhand View Post
    Excellent piece by Alex Ross on a sympathetic, underrated composer:

    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2...lieris-revenge
    Not a bad article. It's a bit too generous towards Salieri in my opinion.

    Mozart is immeasurably greater.

  4. Likes The Conte, Bulldog, ldiat liked this post
  5. #3
    Senior Member Bulldog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Albuquerque, New Mexico
    Posts
    26,007
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    I think Salieri is considered a "somewhat obscure" composer and deserves that moniker.

  6. Likes The Conte liked this post
  7. #4
    Senior Member PlaySalieri's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    3,581
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bulldog View Post
    I think Salieri is considered a "somewhat obscure" composer and deserves that moniker.
    I'm afraid his revival is fuelled by interest in his association with Mozart and of course the film and play.

    I've hears some of his opera - and his requiem is not bad. But let's not get carried away - until Amadeus he was firmly buried in musical history and with good reason.

  8. #5
    Senior Member KenOC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    SoCal, USA
    Posts
    20,008
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Credit where credit is due. Salieri’s Variations on La Foglia de Spagna are the first extended orchestral variations without a solo instrument written. This is an honor usually (and mistakenly) assigned to Brahms’s Haydn Variations.

    Yeah, they’re not really all that good, but still…


  9. #6
    Senior Member Larkenfield's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Location
    Sedona
    Posts
    4,272
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    4

    Default

    Relationship with Mozart:

    In the 1780s, while Mozart lived and worked in Vienna, he and his father Leopold wrote in their letters that several "cabals" of Italians led by Salieri were actively putting obstacles in the way of Mozart's obtaining certain posts or staging his operas. For example, Mozart wrote in December 1781 to his father that "the only one who counts in [the Emperor's] eyes is Salieri".[32] Their letters suggest that both Mozart and his father, being Austrians who resented the special place that Italian composers had in the courts of the Austrian nobility, blamed the Italians in general and Salieri in particular for all of Mozart's difficulties in establishing himself in Vienna. Mozart wrote to his father in May 1783 about Salieri and Lorenzo Da Ponte, the court poet: "You know those Italian gentlemen; they are very nice to your face! Enough, we all know about them. And if [Da Ponte] is in league with Salieri, I'll never get a text from him, and I would love to show him what I can really do with an Italian opera."[33] In July 1783, he again wrote to his father of "a trick of Salieri's",[34] one of several letters in which Mozart accused Salieri of trickery. Decades after Mozart's death, a rumour began to circulate that Mozart had been poisoned by Salieri. This rumour has been attributed by some to a rivalry between the German and the Italian schools of music.[35] Carl Maria von Weber, a relative of Mozart by marriage[36] whom Wagner has characterized as the most German of German composers, is said to have refused to join Ludlamshöhle [de] (Ludlam's cave), a social club of which Salieri was a member, and avoided having anything to do with him.[37] These rumours then made their way into popular culture. Albert Lortzing's Singspiel Szenen aus Mozarts Leben LoWV28 (1832) uses the cliché of the jealous Salieri trying to hinder Mozart's career.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anto...ip_with_Mozart

    I doubt if Salieri’s reputation will ever be able to overcome this regardless of how well he could compose. He was evidently a very political animal in the music scene who jealously guarded his position at Mozart’s expense if what Mozart says is true. Did Salieri poison Mozart? I don’t know, but something seems to have seriously damaged his reputation that’s been hard to overcome.

    Last edited by Larkenfield; Jun-01-2019 at 09:22.
    "That's all Folks!"

  10. #7
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    7,278
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Shatterhand View Post
    Excellent piece by Alex Ross on a sympathetic, underrated composer:

    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2...lieris-revenge
    Thanks. Interesting article about a composer who still attracts undue criticism for not being someone else.

  11. #8
    Senior Member PlaySalieri's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    3,581
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Thats a nice little summary.

    Ive read through Mozart's letters - I know there are forces persuaded to rehabilitate the relationship between Salieri and Mozart - I dont trust them. Why did Mozart send a carriage to convey Salieri and Mdm Cavalieri in to a perf of Zauberflote - and what is the meaning of Mozart's report that they were delighted and could not praise his opera enough?

    Mozart was already desperate by this time - financially and maybe physically too. It is likely that Salieri in his lofty court position had succeeded in keeping Mozart from gaining the significant appointment he deserved - one that could have settled his finances. So this little stunt of hospitality on Mozart's part may have been nothing more than a last desperate attempt to butter Salieri up. Mozart did actually get a court position though I am not sure if Salieri had any say in it - maybe he did - a position paying hardly anything at all. In Jane Glover's book she details how Mozart was waiting patiently for the death of the court organist - a position that paid handsomely - but poor M died first. Salieri may have seen to it that M did not get that appointment anyway but I admit this is guesswork on my part.

    Why would Salieri want to keep Mozart out?

    Because he knew that Mozart was a superior composer - he may have been a mediocre talent himself - but I am certain he recognised what Mozart was. And the last thing he would want is a superior rival in the emperor's service. The public no doubt favoured Salieri - but there is mounting evidence that Mozart was considered by critics and fellow musicians to be the best composer in the Europe until the arrival of Beethoven. Salieri no doubt would have agreed.

    But Salieri was a more important figure in the eyes of the city of Vienna.

    Even DaPonte only collaborated with Mozart when Salieri seemed to have no use for him - no reflection on Mozart's ability - but Salieri's position was such that DaPonte would have considered it a better career move to work with the Italian. Thank goodness Salieri discarded his libretto for Cosi.

    I dont blame Salieri for any of this. People did and still do try to protect their positions - not least in the musical world.
    Last edited by PlaySalieri; Jun-02-2019 at 15:55.

  12. Likes Open Book liked this post
  13. #9
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2018
    Posts
    442
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by stomanek View Post
    I'm afraid his revival is fuelled by interest in his association with Mozart and of course the film and play.

    I've hears some of his opera - and his requiem is not bad. But let's not get carried away - until Amadeus he was firmly buried in musical history and with good reason.
    He was buried because he was unfortunately wedged between giants around him, and because the slanders began immediately. Well before Amadeus there was Pushkin.

  14. #10
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Location
    Vermont
    Posts
    300
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    There is some dispute as to just how broke and just how despondent Mozart was during the last year and months of his life. Letters from Mozart during this period are actually quite upbeat and optimistic.
    Last edited by vtpoet; Jun-02-2019 at 23:32.

  15. #11
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Location
    Vermont
    Posts
    300
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Reading the New Yorker piece is what brought me back here. If this question doesn't belong in this thread, then I'd be happy if someone could make it its own thread. (I don't think that I can start new threads yet.) But anyway, with Salieri in mind, I was just curious how any of you might rank Mozart's peers, specifically those writing opera during Mozart's lifetime. Is Saliera second in line? I've listened to and enjoyed all of Haydn's operas, and listen and own some of JC Bach's operas (howsoever I can find them) and listen to Salieri's operas. I also occasionally listen to operas by JM Haydn, Kozeluch, Georg Benda, Gluck, Cimarosa and Paisiello.

  16. #12
    Senior Member PlaySalieri's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    3,581
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by vtpoet View Post
    Reading the New Yorker piece is what brought me back here. If this question doesn't belong in this thread, then I'd be happy if someone could make it its own thread. (I don't think that I can start new threads yet.) But anyway, with Salieri in mind, I was just curious how any of you might rank Mozart's peers, specifically those writing opera during Mozart's lifetime. Is Saliera second in line? I've listened to and enjoyed all of Haydn's operas, and listen and own some of JC Bach's operas (howsoever I can find them) and listen to Salieri's operas. I also occasionally listen to operas by JM Haydn, Kozeluch, Georg Benda, Gluck, Cimarosa and Paisiello.
    You will probably find that few people actually listen to any 18thC opera but Mozart. I have listened to some Haydn, Salieri - Gluck even - who can be good at times. It's so much of a one horse race we cant even see who is in second place and it doesnt matter.

    I applaud you though for your range of operatic listening.

  17. #13
    Senior Member KenOC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    SoCal, USA
    Posts
    20,008
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Opera aside, I have to say that the Salieri works I have heard don't really hold my attention.


  18. #14
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Location
    Vermont
    Posts
    300
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by stomanek View Post
    You will probably find that few people actually listen to any 18thC opera but Mozart. I have listened to some Haydn, Salieri - Gluck even - who can be good at times. It's so much of a one horse race we cant even see who is in second place and it doesnt matter.
    Yeah, I don't particularly care for 19th century opera. Guess I'm the odd one out that way. My interest in opera starts with Monteverdi and pretty much ends with Beethoven.

  19. #15
    Senior Member Meyerbeer Smith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    2,212
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    5

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by vtpoet View Post
    Reading the New Yorker piece is what brought me back here. If this question doesn't belong in this thread, then I'd be happy if someone could make it its own thread. (I don't think that I can start new threads yet.) But anyway, with Salieri in mind, I was just curious how any of you might rank Mozart's peers, specifically those writing opera during Mozart's lifetime. Is Saliera second in line? I've listened to and enjoyed all of Haydn's operas, and listen and own some of JC Bach's operas (howsoever I can find them) and listen to Salieri's operas. I also occasionally listen to operas by JM Haydn, Kozeluch, Georg Benda, Gluck, Cimarosa and Paisiello.
    I'm still investigating the period, but...

    GLUCK
    GLUCK
    GLUCK
    GLUCK
    Mozart
    Salieri (I've only heard Les Danaides, but it's powerful and sinewy). I'll listen to half a dozen more this year.

    Haven't heard any of Haydn or Cimarosa's operas. Bach's Amadis de Gaule is brilliantly tuneful. Didn't like Paisiello's Nina.

    As for the French: Monsigny wrote two really attractive operas (Le roi et le fermier, Le déserteur), which deserve more fame. I've only heard one Grétry - Richard Coeur-de-lion - but it's inventive, and has the beautiful, once famous "Ô Richard, ô mon roi". The Italian Sacchini's Oedipe à Colone is moving, even sublime, with some lovely ensembles. I want to hear more Méhul -

    and Lemoyne's Phèdre. I nodded off during the 2017 Paris performance; crowded, rather stuffy, theatre, high up, and jet lag caught up with me. I vaguely remember some beautiful ensembles towards the end.

    There are plenty of excellent late 18th century operas beyond Mozart's seven!
    Last edited by Meyerbeer Smith; Jun-04-2019 at 08:04.

Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •