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Thread: What are we to expect of Classical music in the future?

  1. #16
    Senior Member Tikoo Tuba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeh375 View Post
    Unless you try and do it yourself Tikoo (do you?), it drives me mad sometimes...
    Art has entered my dreaming . It can be like walking through a gallery of paintings and this gives me great comfort . Abstract naturalism is often the style . The colors are always interesting , and the dream-time is relaxed enough they can be contemplated . Ah . a lovely green . This happens just before arising and seems to linger for as long as I wish . And then , as I wish , I awaken to the first morning light .

    In death , I expect this dreaming would never end .
    Last edited by Tikoo Tuba; Jun-03-2019 at 22:15.

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    The reason composition is so lousy today is because of hedonism and the ease of living. Comfort and high art simply don't go together because the former is extremely hard--nothing a hedonist would attempt. There might still be some excellence emerging though at the present moment.

    By 2100 a renewal will have happened and high art will once again flourish.

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    Hopefully neo-serialism, and past that the continued progression towards the total removal of the tonal system and all other artificial constraints, for example the constraint of being limited to 12-tet instead of being able to use all possible tones, from modern classical music.

    This is not to say that I wish that all classical music be rid of these constraints, however it is just natural progression that these things should happen in the "standard tradition". Music with constraints, just like art and literature with constraints has a place, it shouldn't always be the standard mode to write in, especially when it is the same constraint, ex. tonality or the sonnet form, two things which should be largely irrelevant in modern art.
    Last edited by Schoenberg; Jun-04-2019 at 00:45.

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    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    Brian Ferneyhough is using computers to generate hundreds of possibilities which normally would take him weeks or months to work out, and the computer generates a surplus of the possibilities, which he can then go through and choose the most interesting. So the human mind is still the center of things, aided by artificial intelligence to do all the time-consuming pre-compositional "grunt work." So I see new horizons opening up already. It will probably involve computers in some sense.
    "The way out is through the door. Why is it that no one will use this method?"
    -Confucious

    "In Spring! In the creation of art it must be as it is in Spring!" -Arnold Schoenberg

    "We only become what we are by the radical and deep-seated refusal of that which others have made us." -Jean-Paul Sartre

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    Senior Member Woodduck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schoenberg View Post
    Hopefully neo-serialism, and past that the continued progression towards the total removal of the tonal system and all other artificial constraints, for example the constraint of being limited to 12-tet instead of being able to use all possible tones, from modern classical music.

    This is not to say that I wish that all classical music be rid of these constraints, however it is just natural progression that these things should happen in the "standard tradition". Music with constraints, just like art and literature with constraints has a place, it shouldn't always be the standard mode to write in, especially when it is the same constraint, ex. tonality or the sonnet form, two things which should be largely irrelevant in modern art.
    The idea that a set of aesthetic laws or premises within which an artist works is a "constraint" - with the word having a negative connotation - is one with which I suspect few artists would agree. Without rules of engagement there is no language of music, no "norms," shared by composer and listener, against which musical gestures can be measured and found meaningful. If music is to be anything but experimentation with randomly produced sounds, and therefore if it's to hold the interest of an audience, it has to accept limitations with which listeners can, and will want to, become familiar. The rejection of all "constraints" is a sure and rapid path to ephemerality for music and obscurity for its composers.

    If what you're really hoping for is that composers be "allowed" to write without accepting aesthetic premises familiar to audiences, I see nothing standing in the way of that right now. But don't bank on sonnets (do people still write sonnets?) and tonal music vanishing. As long as people find them relevant, poets and composers won't get far contending that they aren't. Why wish them away? Why wish anything away? Isn't that just a new kind of constraint? That sort of Modernist iconoclasm should have died about half a century ago, when it became clear that audiences everywhere were not clamoring for the next great work by Elliott Carter or Milton Babbitt.
    Last edited by Woodduck; Jun-04-2019 at 05:51.

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  7. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woodduck View Post
    The idea that a set of aesthetic laws or premises within which an artist works is a "constraint" - with the word having a negative connotation - is one with which I suspect few artists would agree. Without rules of engagement there is no language of music, no "norms," shared by composer and listener, against which musical gestures can be measured and found meaningful. If music is to be anything but experimentation with randomly produced sounds, and therefore if it's to hold the interest of an audience, it has to accept limitations with which listeners can, and will want to, become familiar. The rejection of all "constraints" is a sure and rapid path to ephemerality for music and obscurity for its composers.

    If what you're really hoping for is that composers be "allowed" to write without accepting aesthetic premises familiar to audiences, I see nothing standing in the way of that right now. But don't bank on sonnets (do people still write sonnets?) and tonal music vanishing. As long as people find them relevant, poets and composers won't get far contending that they aren't. Why wish them away? Why wish anything away? Isn't that just a new kind of constraint? That sort of Modernist iconoclasm should have died about half a century ago, when it became clear that audiences everywhere were not clamoring for the next great work by Elliott Carter or Milton Babbitt.
    This is a time when I agree with you. If you disallow constraints, chances are that atonality will become the norm. If that happens, unresolved dissonance will also become the norm. If that happens, the audience that is rooting for the Classical, Baroque, and Romantic styles will drown out. If that happens, the orchestra will become very irrelevant. And if that happens, chances are that the Beethoven symphonies will die out and generations will go by with nobody knowing how great Beethoven was or any of the other great composers like Bach, Mozart, Chopin, Tchaikovsky, and countless others. A similar thing happened after Bach died. His music became unknown to the general public until Mendelssohn revived Bach's works. Nobody that I know of would want that to happen to Beethoven and I seriously doubt that a significant number of people would want that to happen to Beethoven.

    I would not want the 22nd century to be all about dissonances not resolving. And chances are that millions of others, perhaps even billions would agree with that statement. If that happens, I hope somebody will revive Classical Music as it once was and declare not just a style but an era of Neoclassicism.
    Last edited by caters; Jun-04-2019 at 06:21.

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    Senior Member Larkenfield's Avatar
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    Educated guess: Concerts and recitals will continue. The staples of the repertoire (from Hildegard of Bingen to Mahler, etc.) will continue because of their universal appeal, with those composers of contemporary interest coming and going. The music is in no danger of dying with virtually everything online and a tremendous amount of more coming in the next 81 years, though one will probably have to pay more for it and one hopes with more revenue going to the performing musicians. Pop music will continue to go through its periodic upheavals. Jazz and country will continue with some spectacular performances because they can tell a story. It looks like a feast to me in choice and variety.
    Last edited by Larkenfield; Jun-04-2019 at 12:46.
    "That's all Folks!"

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    Senior Member mikeh375's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millionrainbows View Post
    Brian Ferneyhough is using computers to generate hundreds of possibilities which normally would take him weeks or months to work out, and the computer generates a surplus of the possibilities, which he can then go through and choose the most interesting. So the human mind is still the center of things, aided by artificial intelligence to do all the time-consuming pre-compositional "grunt work." So I see new horizons opening up already. It will probably involve computers in some sense.
    One tantalising outcome for the future of music might be whether or not an algorithm will create something of worth from its own volition as opposed to number crunching. Du Sautoy in his latest book explains how coders are now introducing mathematical randomness into the algorithms (algorhythms!!) to create unexpected twists. If you characterise art as a complicated approach to pattern recognition (a survival instinct), then it is highly likely that valuable art from an audience perception, will be created in the near future (it is actually already happening).

    I have no reason to worry about tonality co-existing with atonality and see no need to denigrate either practice. However, nothing should and will stop a creative spirit from venturing forth into uncharted sonic fields - it is an imperative for some as is probing our environment and beyond as a species. Our survival depends on it as an essential paradigm and in music and the arts, an artist of worth is not necessarily beholden to popular trends and softened ears and eyes.

    Wooduck is right I believe, regarding 'constraints'. Often the 'rub' of musical thought against a composer's self-imposed restraints (or a set up if you will), enlivens work with the unexpected, the inspirational, the serendipitous. Human fecundity is constantly probing barriers, searching for nascent inevitability - that is where music of worth is sometimes found and is not possible unless constraints pre-exist imv.

    for those interested, Du Sautoy's book......

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Creativity-.../dp/0008288151
    Last edited by mikeh375; Jun-04-2019 at 15:25.

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  11. #24
    Senior Member mikeh375's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tikoo Tuba View Post
    Art has entered my dreaming . It can be like walking through a gallery of paintings and this gives me great comfort . Abstract naturalism is often the style . The colors are always interesting , and the dream-time is relaxed enough they can be contemplated . Ah . a lovely green . This happens just before arising and seems to linger for as long as I wish . And then , as I wish , I awaken to the first morning light .

    In death , I expect this dreaming would never end .
    Try it for real and you might not be so poetic about it... Someone once said that it's best not to compose, unless the not doing of it becomes bothersome.
    Last edited by mikeh375; Jun-04-2019 at 12:50.

  12. #25
    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeh375 View Post
    Try it for real and you might not be so poetic about it... Someone once said that it's best not to compose, unless the not doing of it becomes bothersome.
    ...i.e., unless one feels compelled to play and be poetic. I'm serious, with a squinched-up brow.
    "The way out is through the door. Why is it that no one will use this method?"
    -Confucious

    "In Spring! In the creation of art it must be as it is in Spring!" -Arnold Schoenberg

    "We only become what we are by the radical and deep-seated refusal of that which others have made us." -Jean-Paul Sartre

  13. #26
    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    The melting of the polar ice cap will continue, as will global warming, flooding, and hurricanes. Thus, serialism will begin to sound "normal" to fit the extreme angst people will be suffering. Mozart will only be played in air-conditioned underground bunkers for the elite...
    "The way out is through the door. Why is it that no one will use this method?"
    -Confucious

    "In Spring! In the creation of art it must be as it is in Spring!" -Arnold Schoenberg

    "We only become what we are by the radical and deep-seated refusal of that which others have made us." -Jean-Paul Sartre

  14. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larkenfield View Post
    and a tremendous amount of more coming in the next 81 years.
    Too bad that scientists expect total collapse in the near future - climate changes, pollution, soil degradation, deforestation, mass extinction of wildlife are facts that cannot be denied and we (our governments mainly, the regular person cannot do much) are basically doing nothing to prevent the end of the world as we know it.
    Enjoy music while you still can.
    Anyway, let's say we somehow manage to overcome all these problems and the future is like some kind of sci-fi setting- digital (or quantum computer) brain implants and high-tech - it's possible that for super intelligent beings even the most complex compositions from the past to sound like barbaric drumming in terms of sophistication. Imagine having super pattern recognition that allows you to recognize and interpret all kinds of harmonic/inharmonic vibrational series (opening our minds to all kinds of chordal and polytonal structures), super fine pitch differences without any auditory masking (all kinds of xenharmonic micro/macrotonal systems would be more comprehensible), super memory, super complex instruments with morphing timbres/autotuning to different pitch systems etc.

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