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Thread: Positive and Negative

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    Senior Member apricissimus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millionrainbows View Post
    "Zero" is zero. Negative is negative. Reality doesn't "suck," it goes to zero, nothing. Absence of movement. Real sound is like this.
    Nothing ever "sucks" I suppose, but a sucking action is when pressure is reduced on one side, but not on the other, which causes the apparent sucking action.

    This is what happens in a sound wave (a compressional wave). So I think it does make sense to talk about positive and negative action in the vibration of a sound wave. If there were only a positive force, there would just be a push, and no vibration.

    And it really only makes sense to measure this positive and negative action in relation to the medium in which the wave is traveling. So while a sound eave vibration could be thought of as a rapid succession of "pushes" and decreases in that push (not even going to zero), the positive and negative aspects still make sense because a sound wave literally cannot exist outside of some medium like air. And the ambient pressure of the medium defines what zero is.
    Last edited by apricissimus; Jun-13-2019 at 15:42.

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    Senior Member CnC Bartok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millionrainbows View Post
    "Zero" is zero. Negative is negative. Reality doesn't "suck," it goes to zero, nothing. Absence of movement. Real sound is like this.
    There is no such thing as negative pressure, a negative CHANGE in pressure is of course possible. Zero pressure is called a perfect vacuum. I am afraid the movement of a speaker mirrors natural sound production pretty damned accurately from the Physics point of view.....
    Last edited by CnC Bartok; Jun-13-2019 at 15:22.

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    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CnC Bartok View Post
    There is no such thing as negative pressure, a negative CHANGE in pressure is of course possible. Zero pressure is called a perfect vacuum. I am afraid the movement of a speaker mirrors natural sound production pretty damned accurately from the Physics point of view.....
    But that's not the point. The point is, reality starts at zero, which is neutral, or nothing. Positive is positive, but there is no "negative." There is no "other side of zero."
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    Senior Member apricissimus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millionrainbows View Post
    But that's not the point. The point is, reality starts at zero, which is neutral, or nothing. Positive is positive, but there is no "negative." There is no "other side of zero."
    I think it would be more accurate to say that measuring pressure differences starts at stasis, or equilibrium, and not "zero" or "nothing".
    Last edited by apricissimus; Jun-13-2019 at 15:58.

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    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by apricissimus View Post
    I think it would be more accurate to say that measuring pressure differences starts at stasis, or equilibrium, and not "zero" or "nothing".
    Equilibrium could imply a "mid point," but that's not specific; that could mean "-2/+2" DC voltage. Reality is not relative to imaginary figures; it starts at "zero." Is this concept hard to grasp for an abstract thinker?
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    Senior Member bigshot's Avatar
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    I don't have any experience in philosophy. I just know a little about the practical concepts behind sound reproduction. Speakers operate on "excursion". That's the cone of the speaker pushing out and in to create vibrations which put out sound waves traveling through the air. "Blowing" and "Sucking" is a colorful way of describing speaker excursion. Phase is simply whether the speaker's excursion is inward or outward with the first modulation. You want to have both speakers in the same phase in a stereo system, or one speaker will be "blowing" while the other is "sucking". That results in phase cancellation and the sound is dramatically affected fr the worse. If you have both speakers in phase, they work together in synchronicity to push out sound.
    Last edited by bigshot; Jun-13-2019 at 17:28.
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    Senior Member CnC Bartok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millionrainbows View Post
    But that's not the point. The point is, reality starts at zero, which is neutral, or nothing. Positive is positive, but there is no "negative." There is no "other side of zero."
    With a wave - longitudinal in the case, naturally, of course there is!

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    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CnC Bartok View Post
    With a wave - longitudinal in the case, naturally, of course there is!
    Yes, in the abstract; but a wave, in reality, in the real world, does not go into a negative value. It can only reach zero. It "exists" or it doesn't.
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    Senior Member jegreenwood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millionrainbows View Post
    Yes, in the abstract; but a wave, in reality, in the real world, does not go into a negative value. It can only reach zero. It "exists" or it doesn't.
    Well, that's a binary system. Useful in many contexts, but not of much use in describing the actual sound of the wave. (assuming it's a sound wave).* For that purpose (and many others) humans use numbers. Numbers do not exist in the real world. They were invented by humans to help comprehend, measure and manage the real world. And at some point humans decided that negative numbers would help accomplish these aims. One of the many uses found for negative numbers was depicting a wave. I suppose humans might have decided to graphically depict the amplitude of a wave entirely above a '0' line (where for example if the height of the wave was 20, equilibrium would be 10), but they didn't - for good reason.

    * Please, please, please do not turn this into an analogue vs. digital debate.

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    Senior Member bigshot's Avatar
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    All things are relative. When you look at a waveform, there is a baseline and the modulation alternates above and below the line. You can put the baseline wherever you want. It's just a visual marker so you can see the degree of the modulation. They put it down the middle to divide the waveform so you can see it rising and descending. As jegreenwood says, zero is a handy baseline for mathematics. Positive and negative is all relative. This topic is kind of silly.
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  12. #26
    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigshot View Post
    All things are relative. When you look at a waveform, there is a baseline and the modulation alternates above and below the line. You can put the baseline wherever you want. It's just a visual marker so you can see the degree of the modulation. They put it down the middle to divide the waveform so you can see it rising and descending. As jegreenwood says, zero is a handy baseline for mathematics. Positive and negative is all relative. This topic is kind of silly.
    Yeah, that's true if you are talking abstractly. I'm talking about what happens in reality. Reality is not a number line, with a zero point, and positive/negative on either side. Reality is what happens after zero. Zero does not exist in reality.
    "The way out is through the door. Why is it that no one will use this method?"
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  13. #27
    Senior Member bigshot's Avatar
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    The lack of baseline is why reality is all relative. But this is philosophy. Not my subject.
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  14. #28
    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jegreenwood View Post
    For that purpose (and many others) humans use numbers. Numbers do not exist in the real world. They were invented by humans to help comprehend, measure and manage the real world.
    That's not true, when numbers are used as they should be. "2" is a number which means "two-ness." That can be a quality of reality, described accurately: 2 bicycles, 2 wheels, 2 pies, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by jegreenwood View Post
    And at some point humans decided that negative numbers would help accomplish these aims.
    That's an abstract view of numbers, which doesn't exist in reality. In fact, "zero" was avoided for centuries because it did not reflect reality: you can have 8 sheep, but you can't have "zero" sheep.

    Zero was avoided in time measurement as well; there is no "zero" month, and the calendar goes from 1 A.D. to 99 A.D., the "first century," but the year before 1 A.D. is 1 B.C. There is no "zero" year.

    Number represents "being;" zero is not applied to "beings" or humans. Babies are not said to be "zero" years old; it goes by months (fractions of 1) and then the baby is 1 year old. Human years do not include "zero" because they deal with "being" in the passage of time.

    On our clocks, there is no "zero" hour; it goes from 12:59 to 1:00, with no zero. Only military time uses zero. That's because the military does not recognize Man as "being" in time; time is only a quantity.
    Last edited by millionrainbows; Jun-17-2019 at 04:47.
    "The way out is through the door. Why is it that no one will use this method?"
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    "In Spring! In the creation of art it must be as it is in Spring!" -Arnold Schoenberg

    "We only become what we are by the radical and deep-seated refusal of that which others have made us." -Jean-Paul Sartre

    "I don't mind dying, as long as I can still breathe." ---Me

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    Senior Member bigshot's Avatar
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    I have no idea what you are trying to say, so I'll just let you have whatever it is. Enjoy!
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  17. #30
    Senior Member jegreenwood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigshot View Post
    I have no idea what you are trying to say, so I'll just let you have whatever it is. Enjoy!
    ^^^ What he said. ^^^

    And by the way, most clocks in the world got from 23:59 to 00:00. It's just another human-made counting system.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/24-hour_clock
    Last edited by jegreenwood; Jun-17-2019 at 13:31.

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