Page 6 of 6 FirstFirst ... 23456
Results 76 to 90 of 90

Thread: Four Last Songs, Richard Strauss

  1. #76
    Senior Member wkasimer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Location
    Sharon, Massachusetts
    Posts
    2,617
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by VitellioScarpia View Post
    Can you point me to where have you said your piece. I have the feeling that I will enjoy the readings...
    I may have only made snarky comments on TC; I probably posted more detailed vitriol on other sites that are now defunct.

    To start with, I find the quality of her voice grating. The tight, excessively controlled vocal production that never seems free of her throat is, for me, like nails on a chalkboard. Added to this, every bit of her singing sounds planned to the most minute degree. For me, the art of great singing (and great music making in general), particularly in the song repertoire, is "the art that conceals art" - performing in such a way that the music sounds like a spontaneous utterance even when it obviously isn't. And for me, that's where Schwarzkopf utterly fails. And it's certainly not from lack of trying - I believe that I've heard virtually every one of her commercial operatic recordings (which often have other singers I admire), and many of her recital recordings. I still keep both of her VLL recordings on the shelf to remind myself of why I dislike them as much as I do.

    P.S.: I know that you were setting me up with your taunt. So, don't try the ingenue card with me.
    Moi?

  2. Likes VitellioScarpia liked this post
  3. #77
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Cambridge, MA
    Posts
    386
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by wkasimer View Post
    I may have only made snarky comments on TC; I probably posted more detailed vitriol on other sites that are now defunct.

    To start with, I find the quality of her voice grating. The tight, excessively controlled vocal production that never seems free of her throat is, for me, like nails on a chalkboard. Added to this, every bit of her singing sounds planned to the most minute degree. For me, the art of great singing (and great music making in general), particularly in the song repertoire, is "the art that conceals art" - performing in such a way that the music sounds like a spontaneous utterance even when it obviously isn't. And for me, that's where Schwarzkopf utterly fails. And it's certainly not from lack of trying - I believe that I've heard virtually every one of her commercial operatic recordings (which often have other singers I admire), and many of her recital recordings. I still keep both of her VLL recordings on the shelf to remind myself of why I dislike them as much as I do.
    Fortunately, I do not find the voice grating in my case but I agree that the tightness in the vocal production can grate. It is seldom discussed that she came to pay for her tight vocal control in 1966 during a run as Donna Elvira at the Met when her voice virtually collapsed. I concur with wkasimer on his observations about her art. I prefer kunst divas -- after all I love Callas -- but she was unable to make it sound spontaneous. As wkasimer said, she was unable to demonstrate the "the art that conceals art".

    Quote Originally Posted by wkasimer View Post

    Moi?
    Last edited by VitellioScarpia; Jul-01-2020 at 16:26.

  4. Likes wkasimer liked this post
  5. #78
    Senior Member Tsaraslondon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    6,469
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    2

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by wkasimer View Post
    I may have only made snarky comments on TC; I probably posted more detailed vitriol on other sites that are now defunct.

    To start with, I find the quality of her voice grating. The tight, excessively controlled vocal production that never seems free of her throat is, for me, like nails on a chalkboard. Added to this, every bit of her singing sounds planned to the most minute degree. For me, the art of great singing (and great music making in general), particularly in the song repertoire, is "the art that conceals art" - performing in such a way that the music sounds like a spontaneous utterance even when it obviously isn't. And for me, that's where Schwarzkopf utterly fails. And it's certainly not from lack of trying - I believe that I've heard virtually every one of her commercial operatic recordings (which often have other singers I admire), and many of her recital recordings. I still keep both of her VLL recordings on the shelf to remind myself of why I dislike them as much as I do.



    Moi?
    There is nothing new in these complaints about Schwarzkopf and I've heard them many time before. I don't agree, obviously, and I do feel that, usually, the art does conceal art. However her art was admittedlty cerebral rather than instinctive, so I understand why some people don't get on with it.

    The one statement I find odd is the opening one. I don't think I've ever come across anyone who has a problem with the basic quality of her intstrument, which is usually described as one of great beauty. We all hear voices differently of course.

    "It's not enough to have a beautiful voice." Maria Callas

  6. #79
    Senior Member wkasimer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2017
    Location
    Sharon, Massachusetts
    Posts
    2,617
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tsaraslondon View Post

    The one statement I find odd is the opening one. I don't think I've ever come across anyone who has a problem with the basic quality of her intstrument...
    Well, now you have!

  7. Likes VitellioScarpia liked this post
  8. #80
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Cambridge, MA
    Posts
    386
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by wkasimer View Post
    Well, now you have!
    I second that. Although there are many recordings where her basic sound does not bother me, in others it does. For example: the squeezed sound she produces as Liù in the Callas Turandot is not a thing of beauy in my book.
    Last edited by VitellioScarpia; Jul-02-2020 at 22:41.

  9. #81
    Senior Member Neo Romanza's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    1,382
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    My go-to performance of Vier letzte Lieder is Popp/Tennstedt on EMI. My second favorite would be Norman/Masur on Philips. I can’t say I’ve heard too many other performances that have made my ears perk up like these.
    Last edited by Neo Romanza; Jul-02-2020 at 23:26.
    "Close communion with the people is the natural soil nourishing all my work.” - Aram Khachaturian

  10. Likes VitellioScarpia, wkasimer liked this post
  11. #82
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Cambridge, MA
    Posts
    386
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tsaraslondon View Post
    There is nothing new in these complaints about Schwarzkopf and I've heard them many time before.
    Ouch! They are opinions irrespective if new or not.
    Last edited by VitellioScarpia; Yesterday at 18:22.

  12. #83
    Senior Member Barbebleu's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Great Britain
    Posts
    3,857
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tsaraslondon View Post
    There is nothing new in these complaints about Schwarzkopf and I've heard them many time before. I don't agree, obviously, and I do feel that, usually, the art does conceal art. However her art was admittedlty cerebral rather than instinctive, so I understand why some people don't get on with it.

    The one statement I find odd is the opening one. I don't think I've ever come across anyone who has a problem with the basic quality of her intstrument, which is usually described as one of great beauty. We all hear voices differently of course.

    Don’t worry Tsaras. You have at least one La Schwarzkopf fan in agreement. There is just something in her voice that resonates with me. But then again, I love Bob Dylan!!
    "...it is said that first your heart sings, then you play. I think if it is not like that, then it is only just combination of notes, isn't it? " - Pandit Nikhil Banerjee, Master of the Sitar.

  13. #84
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Cambridge, MA
    Posts
    386
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Barbebleu View Post
    La Schwarzkopf
    Das Schwarzkopf. She was the antithesis of an Italian singer in temperament, sensitivity and style...
    Last edited by VitellioScarpia; Yesterday at 18:33.

  14. #85
    Senior Member Barbebleu's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Great Britain
    Posts
    3,857
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by VitellioScarpia View Post
    Das Schwarzkopf. She was the antithesis of an Italian singer in temperament, sensitivity and style...
    It’s a good job we don’t all hear the same thing! Her Italianate Mozart sounds pretty convincing to these aging ears. Btw, would it not be Die Schwarzkopf if we are going down the German straße?
    "...it is said that first your heart sings, then you play. I think if it is not like that, then it is only just combination of notes, isn't it? " - Pandit Nikhil Banerjee, Master of the Sitar.

  15. Likes VitellioScarpia, annaw, Tsaraslondon liked this post
  16. #86
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Cambridge, MA
    Posts
    386
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Barbebleu View Post
    It’s a good job we don’t all hear the same thing! Her Italianate Mozart sounds pretty convincing to these aging ears. Btw, would it not be Die Schwarzkopf if we are going down the German straße?
    Yes, Die... Her Mozart is very good, I have to confess.
    Last edited by VitellioScarpia; Yesterday at 18:56.

  17. Likes Barbebleu, Tsaraslondon liked this post
  18. #87
    Senior Member Barbebleu's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Great Britain
    Posts
    3,857
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by VitellioScarpia View Post
    Yes, Die... Her Mozart is very good, I have to confess.
    I will admit she doesn’t always convince when she is singing in English.
    "...it is said that first your heart sings, then you play. I think if it is not like that, then it is only just combination of notes, isn't it? " - Pandit Nikhil Banerjee, Master of the Sitar.

  19. #88
    Senior Member Tsaraslondon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    6,469
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    2

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Barbebleu View Post
    I will admit she doesn’t always convince when she is singing in English.
    Yes, but how many foreign artists do? We can be so sniffy about foreigners singing in our language. It's probably just as well the French, Italians and Germans seem to be less so. At least you can hear the words. Sutherland, for whom English was her mother tongue, could be singing in Urdu whatever language she sang in.

    PS As it happens I find Schwarzkopf's singing of Danny Boy peculiarly moving.
    "It's not enough to have a beautiful voice." Maria Callas

  20. Likes vincula, Barbebleu liked this post
  21. #89
    Senior Member Barbebleu's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Great Britain
    Posts
    3,857
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tsaraslondon View Post

    PS As it happens I find Schwarzkopf's singing of Danny Boy peculiarly moving.
    I do too. I only said not always convincing. Doesn’t mean I don’t like it! Domingo was no station announcer when he sang in German!
    "...it is said that first your heart sings, then you play. I think if it is not like that, then it is only just combination of notes, isn't it? " - Pandit Nikhil Banerjee, Master of the Sitar.

  22. Likes Tsaraslondon liked this post
  23. #90
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Cambridge, MA
    Posts
    386
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    It goes both ways: Italian, German and French get bungled so many times and by big names (Domingo's German should be declared its own "dialect", Sutherland ci-elo)'s instead of celo's, etc.). Cannot comment on Russian at all... But the worse is when the singer is indifferent to the meaning of the text or vaguely aware of it. It.Drives.Me.Crazy.Mad. (Do you really want me to tell you how I feel about it?)

  24. Likes Barbebleu liked this post
Page 6 of 6 FirstFirst ... 23456

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •