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Thread: The Modern Era Composers, post Wagner ending Elliott Carter

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    Senior Member mikeh375's Avatar
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    Debussy was definitely a considerable paradigm shift, a prerequisite for modernism.

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    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Portamento View Post
    Why do you make repeated attempts to incite arguments on who is the greatest or who should be completely and utterly excluded from the perennial "Great Modern Era Composer list"? The beauty of contemporary music is that, for the time being, there is no 'great' and there is (little to) no ranking. We'll let history sort that stuff out for us 100 years down the line, but for now all we can do is bask in the glory of the music.
    I agree; Hovhaness, for example. I know he is not "great," but I like the territory he is covering: Eastern-influenced music, often modal, which seems to improvise within a scale rather than "develop" thematically.

    I think the idea of "masterpieces" by "greats" is an outmoded concept left over from traditional, pre-technology history.
    "The way out is through the door. Why is it that no one will use this method?"
    -Confucious

    "In Spring! In the creation of art it must be as it is in Spring!" -Arnold Schoenberg

    "We only become what we are by the radical and deep-seated refusal of that which others have made us." -Jean-Paul Sartre

  3. #48
    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    The desire to "destroy icons" is a manifestation of modernism's post-WWII consciousness of "heroic Man" as being inherently self-destructive (h-bomb). If the causes of self-destruction (the old icons) are destroyed, then the situation is defused; the bomb has been dismantled.
    "The way out is through the door. Why is it that no one will use this method?"
    -Confucious

    "In Spring! In the creation of art it must be as it is in Spring!" -Arnold Schoenberg

    "We only become what we are by the radical and deep-seated refusal of that which others have made us." -Jean-Paul Sartre

  4. #49
    Senior Member NLAdriaan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millionrainbows View Post
    I agree; Hovhaness, for example. I know he is not "great," but I like the territory he is covering: Eastern-influenced music, often modal, which seems to improvise within a scale rather than "develop" thematically.

    I think the idea of "masterpieces" by "greats" is an outmoded concept left over from traditional, pre-technology history.
    I do not know anything of Hovhaness, but his inspirational sources sound similar to Messiaen.

    The entire idea of being the greatest of the greatest, seems to be a nonsense discussion, best to be ignored. It is all a matter of taste and it does not matter of what you like is disliked by 99% of the population. The only consequence will be that the popular vote defines what is being recorded and distributed in great numbers and played in concert. In fact, only a very tiny selection of all available music is played over and over again. A narrow selection of warhorses that prevent the public from getting acquainted with something new.

    Another aspect is that once a composer is 'discovered', his music will become popular very fast and everyone will want to record it. We saw this with Mahler, from the sixties onwards (as Mahler already predicted, it happened exactly 50 years after his passing) and with Shostakovich some twenty years later.

    So, the music market merely defines what music is to become popular and what will remain in the shades.

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    Good points.
    I faintly recall the Mahler scenario,,where his music was only *remembered* some decades after his death.

    Schoenberg 's notoriety, along with Berg, Webern, mostly was posthumous.

    Shostakovich was hidden in dark Russia, which helps partly explains his late recognition.

    Kajanus gave up his composition, in order to support full time devotion to his compatriot 's music, Sibelius.


    Schnittke is slowly gaining recognition. We can thank the BIS label for their dedication for all things Schnittke. w/o BIS, pickings will be slim,,oh should also mention Chandos for their SPECTACULAR catalogue in Schnittke.

    Conductor Christian Lindberg and his associates at the Norrepoking SO, have worked hard on a world wide tour called The Pettersson Project. I think audiences have been receptive to this *new music*. It sure ain't Bruckner, that's FOR SURE. (=Bruckner is in *The Tradition= more accessible = more welcoming = more easy to assimilate/accept* vs the *uncomprehensible* Pettersson)



    I'd love to see Szymanowski gain in recognition,,,major, composer for sure, yet somehow has flown under the radar.



    last, we come to Henze,,,no wait, 1st Elliott Carter. amazing that there are such folks as *anti-Carterists* in the USA,,,in Europe they love him.


    Now we come to Henze…*who is that? Never heard of him...* is the common response.
    Now Henze has a long way to go.
    He is somehow jumbled in with many late mod composers.

    sure its all about what the market dictates, obviously it can not be any other way.

    Lets say, this year in 2019,,every classical music fan comes to love and adore all things Henze,,I mean a sensation like Elvis Prestly or even the Beatles coming to the USA...something along those lines.

    why, what would happen?
    Nothing,,except Henze cd sales would rocket and prices would go top $,,,,,but as for concerts? can't happen, as most programs are already locked up years in advance.

    The classical music industry is just that,, a industry,,which has nothing whatever to do with individual choices.

    Folks go to the concert and are forced to accept whatever is performed. The Common man;'s vote is left out the equation.
    \
    That is to say the Henze craze can only take place ona individual level, never in a group form,,,at least not in this present epoch..and considering modern man is under attack from every angle and his $ is near worthless, , classical music is the furthest thing on his mind.
    Pop music rules, jazz also has a huge following.
    I avoid both like the plague of H1N1 Ebola.


    Henze's recognition may not ever take off, his music is not *easy*, not *straightforward*. its challenging , its different its unique, Things modern man has no time nor energy to break down.


    lazy modern man is out of touch with The High arts.
    besides he always yearsn for 8the good old days*...ahhh how things once were,,,those were the good times..
    the music of Henze destroys all such *reminiscences*.
    ….although …..




  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by NLAdriaan View Post
    .

    The entire idea of being the greatest of the greatest, seems to be a nonsense discussion, best to be ignored. It is all a matter of taste and it does not matter of what you like is disliked by 99% of the population. .

    I hope I addressed your 2nd part, *if 99% does not like a certain composer*, majority rules the roost , in the post #50
    1st idea, about *best of the best*.
    This is all I am after in my 35 yrs of classical music.
    Which are the greatest composers from each country. This is what I am after these 35 years in The High Arts.
    I make it a point to willfully, cognitively , aesthetically arrive at my choices.
    I am not driven as mass common man is derived.

    = Beethoven will remain most popular for quite a long yet. No forseeable changes there.
    So no, I do not embrace the whole classical spectrum,,,only the best of the best.
    The rest you can have.

  7. #52
    Senior Member Phil loves classical's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulbest View Post
    Rihm is a post mod composer,,should we include post mod inside the great true classical arts tradition. I vote a solid defiant
    NO.


    Post mod is just what it is, POST< = after the show is over with,,
    The great classical era, is over,,
    Jagden is not classical,,,, it is something other than.
    I hear nothong connecting that piece to any great composer before.
    With who, Varese?
    Varese never has anything even remotely as schizoid as Jagden.
    Lets be real here.

    I asked this in a previous thread: How is Carter in any way connected to music from the past? He is also considered postmodern by some, at least in stance, although fell under the modernist era just by living in that time, no more than Glazunov was typical of his time (people thought his music came from much earlier from its sound). Rihm music is said to be "embedded" in both modern and postmodern. It seems to me you are inventing things into what you hear.

    http://www.cornellpress.cornell.edu/...80140104579770
    Last edited by Phil loves classical; Jun-12-2019 at 16:52.
    "Forgive me, Majesty. I'm a vulgar man. But I assure you, my music is not.“ Mozart

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    I am sure, everything said in the book, , in such glowing terms, about Rihm , is true.
    If I came across that snippet in a mag,,i no doubt would have bought his music in the LP days,,as we had no resources such as YT to ck it out pre purchase. The descript of his music, sounds intriguing, , fantastic, *not to be missed*…


    With Elliott Carter , as I mentioned often here on TC, I hear his music as a development of , perhaps what Varese did not get around to finish. Also Carter can be heard as Second Generation, 2nd Viennese. If you look at any list of USA classical composers, top 3 or 4 will always include Copland, Ives, Hanson, and a few others,,,Carter might/might not be on some *top 5 ameriacn classical composers*. Why is this?

    His music is outside the *norm*,,,Carter's music to me, is not *American*, whereas Copland is 100% pure USA. Carter to me is international, no boundaries, , also perhaps late modern, but DEFINETLY NOT <post modern>
    Rihm is post modern german.

    Henze has nothing,,,,well no, he is german, no doubt there,,,but he is also, International, such as Carter.
    Both I hear as exact contemporaries , both on the same level of genius. And both outside *the box*, the norms.
    Henze's name gets thrown in with the group of famous post moderns, by error and ignorance.

    look at wiki, has Stockhausen in terms as *significant,,,,,influential,,,highly important...*,,whereas go to Henze,,,*was a german composer*,,I make edits *germany's greatest late 20th C, post WW2 composer*,,,,wiki editors keep deleting my opinions.
    wiki is only for base bone facts, no fleshing out, = misses the mark of reality = popular opinion, pop vote.


    Henze can not become known as his music requires a certain level of hearing skills.

    No one can just walk up to Henze as a classical newbie, and *get* his music, Not going to happen. One must have the stars and stripes of years around all eras of classical mujisc under ones experiences before grasping Henze.
    Takes a certain maturity to gather in Henze.
    I can clearly understand this.

    I've found out there is bigotry and stubbornness among classical music fans.
    Oh its there.

    Henze needs a new generation of classical music devotees,,and I do not forsee this group emerging any time soon,,,not in my lifetime.

    We must thank Wergo for bringing Henze,,,oh and of course DG's 16 cd set, for helping to make Henze accessible to the general public.

    Rihm is pure post modern,,, fits in perfectly with other post mods, Ligeti, Stockhausen... Messiaen. , Berio, Xenakis.

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    Modern 100%





    Post modern 100%




    Last edited by paulbest; Jun-12-2019 at 17:42.

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    Senior Member Phil loves classical's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulbest View Post
    I am sure, everything said in the book, , in such glowing terms, about Rihm , is true.
    If I came across that snippet in a mag,,i no doubt would have bought his music in the LP days,,as we had no resources such as YT to ck it out pre purchase. The descript of his music, sounds intriguing, , fantastic, *not to be missed*…


    With Elliott Carter , as I mentioned often here on TC, I hear his music as a development of , perhaps what Varese did not get around to finish. Also Carter can be heard as Second Generation, 2nd Viennese. If you look at any list of USA classical composers, top 3 or 4 will always include Copland, Ives, Hanson, and a few others,,,Carter might/might not be on some *top 5 ameriacn classical composers*. Why is this?

    His music is outside the *norm*,,,Carter's music to me, is not *American*, whereas Copland is 100% pure USA. Carter to me is international, no boundaries, , also perhaps late modern, but DEFINETLY NOT <post modern>
    Rihm is post modern german.

    Henze has nothing,,,,well no, he is german, no doubt there,,,but he is also, International, such as Carter.
    Both I hear as exact contemporaries , both on the same level of genius. And both outside *the box*, the norms.
    Henze's name gets thrown in with the group of famous post moderns, by error and ignorance.

    look at wiki, has Stockhausen in terms as *significant,,,,,influential,,,highly important...*,,whereas go to Henze,,,*was a german composer*,,I make edits *germany's greatest late 20th C, post WW2 composer*,,,,wiki editors keep deleting my opinions.
    wiki is only for base bone facts, no fleshing out, = misses the mark of reality = popular opinion, pop vote.


    Henze can not become known as his music requires a certain level of hearing skills.

    No one can just walk up to Henze as a classical newbie, and *get* his music, Not going to happen. One must have the stars and stripes of years around all eras of classical mujisc under ones experiences before grasping Henze.
    Takes a certain maturity to gather in Henze.
    I can clearly understand this.

    I've found out there is bigotry and stubbornness among classical music fans.
    Oh its there.

    Henze needs a new generation of classical music devotees,,and I do not forsee this group emerging any time soon,,,not in my lifetime.

    We must thank Wergo for bringing Henze,,,oh and of course DG's 16 cd set, for helping to make Henze accessible to the general public.

    Rihm is pure post modern,,, fits in perfectly with other post mods, Ligeti, Stockhausen... Messiaen. , Berio, Xenakis.
    Carter is nothing like an extension of Varese, or 2nd generation 2nd Viennese. His compositional approach is completely different, Whereas Stockhausen used serialism as did Webern. This is why I'm questioning your associations and classifications.
    "Forgive me, Majesty. I'm a vulgar man. But I assure you, my music is not.“ Mozart

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    I'm done with this thread. You make no sense whatsoever.
    Last edited by Portamento; Jun-12-2019 at 21:34.

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  13. #57
    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Portamento View Post
    I'm done with this thread. You make no sense whatsoever.
    Don't go away mad; etc.

    Last edited by millionrainbows; Jun-12-2019 at 21:46.
    "The way out is through the door. Why is it that no one will use this method?"
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    "In Spring! In the creation of art it must be as it is in Spring!" -Arnold Schoenberg

    "We only become what we are by the radical and deep-seated refusal of that which others have made us." -Jean-Paul Sartre

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    Quote Originally Posted by Portamento View Post
    I'm done with this thread. You make no sense whatsoever.
    I just wrote like 15 posts, most over 1000 words long,,
    you mean to tell me, honestly,,there is not even 1, not 1 idea somewhere in that stack which you can at least put in a thumbs up, a Like Hit,,..come on man, I ain;'t buying. "there is something either I said, or a composer you love, which I may have knocked, which brings up this snidey remark.


    Come on , like pat Benitar sings..
    *Hit me with your best shot,,,fire away...*

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    Quote Originally Posted by millionrainbows View Post
    Don't go away mad; etc.
    that's what i'm saying, ,,,what do you think I said in my 1000 worded posts which may have caused such a reaction.
    As you and everyone here knows, how much I love classical music.
    and that all my posts come fropm the heart, and are not intent on flaming.
    just straightup beliefs,
    Things that I've been holding in for decades now.
    There are issues in the CM industry that need addressing.
    better sooner than later....
    that's all i'm here for, open friendly debates.

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    These are the posts that really ticked me off:

    Quote Originally Posted by paulbest View Post
    ...well i'm back in 3 minutes,,,from a very short journey into Rihms,, No.
    Just based on this one work,I hope never in my entire last days on this earth,,that I ever hear another note from this *composer*...Add Rihm to the top of The Deletion List.,,ahead of Stockhausen and Ligeti

    ...

    The Rihm cd is going in the trash,,,now,,there it goes,,trash man comes tomorrow....

    its headed for the Kenner City dump
    Quote Originally Posted by paulbest View Post
    I have standards, set by Mozart, Wagner. Ravel , Schoenberg.
    For me to like a Mod composer, they have to show something that at least approaches such greatness.
    Quote Originally Posted by paulbest View Post
    Rihm is a post mod composer,,should we include post mod inside the great true classical arts tradition. I vote a solid defiant
    NO.


    Post mod is just what it is, POST< = after the show is over with,,
    The great classical era, is over,,
    Jagden is not classical,,,, it is something other than.
    I hear nothong connecting that piece to any great composer before.
    With who, Varese?
    Varese never has anything even remotely as schizoid as Jagden.
    Lets be real here.
    You sit on this high horse like you're the arbitrator who deems what is 'great' music and what is not; what is classical music and what is something else. You pose questions such as "should we include post mod inside the great true classical arts tradition[?]" as if this is stuff that gets decided right here, right now and not over hundreds of years. Then you go about capitalizing "The Deletion List" as if you are conducting scholarly research when it is just one man's opinion. Rihm is not my favorite composer, but how can you judge his entire ouevre based on a single three-minute session of one work? Don't give me that "I've been an expert for 35 years" bull.

    There are, however, some things which aren't opinions. Jagden, for one, is classical music no matter how much you want to spin it. It's your blatant rejection of such facts that turns me off. Statements such as "For me to like a Mod composer, they have to show something that at least approaches such greatness" and "The great classical era, is over" are precisely the type of things that alienate many young listeners from contemporary classical music (if not all classical music).

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