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Thread: The Modern Era Composers, post Wagner ending Elliott Carter

  1. #76
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    Oh come on, you know what suggestion I am implying about this inference.

    The Mozart and Beethoven concertos are from a distinct era, music was as it was. Mozart could not have scored a new concerto in the format of Elliott Carter's model. Different epochs of expectations , influences and developments.
    Mozart was inspired by his studies of music, as Beethoven was instilled with his creative ideas , based upon the models in front of him.
    Both masters created works which have proven to be masterpieces, which is why each has been programed and recorded repeatedly over the centuries and will continue for another 100 years to fascinate and intrigue the audiences.
    Mozart and Beethoven concertos draws the crowds.


    Elliott Carter's concerto in the meantime, is a New Work, its brand new and awaits the audience's awareness.
    Besides , look at how often the Beethoven has been recorded/performed. Mozart has a few less recordings , yet ranks high in popularity among the concert audiences.


    Whereas Elliott Carter's conceryo , already has 1 or 2 very successful recordings and we have to thank Ursla Oppens and her accompaniment for bringing us 1st class recordings.
    The level of dif is like a mountain compared to the foothills of playing a Beethoven and Mozart concerto.
    We can not rate *greatness* only in terms of popularity,,but by the overall structure and musical content as per the era's expression.


    Elliott Carter has achieved the pinnacle of expressiveness in The Modern Sound.
    Yet not so far out there to be considered, thankfully, not post modern category.. A style which believes, the more rules I break, the better the music.
    Carter never completely disregards the past masters. Mozart and Beethoven's ideas, he carried with him in the scoring. Its there, if you wish to hear it.
    But its music that is not going to sound like your typical Mozart and Beethoven. It is music cast in The Modern Format, his concerto looks forward, far far into the distant future. It is timeless, as Beethovena and Mozart's hold a sense of timeless/

    Whereas had Carter chose a different path,,that of any of the post mods,,his music would be nothing more than *Post Modern*. A style and form which falls miserable away from the great past masters.

    Ellliott Carter instinctively knew all this.
    He knew to break so far away would minimialize his music to ,,post modern garbage,,where rules and past masterpieces have no influences.


    It is this sense we can catalogue Carter along side Mozart, Beethoven, Berg, as well with Ravel.

    Hope some of this helps explain my ideas.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil loves classical View Post
    Whose judgement are we to go by? Yours, mine, critics or Youtube likes vs. dislikes? This one matches or surpasses in all counts except yours probably.

    had you waited another few minutes,,i would have answered your inquiries in my post #76

    Its not decision as to make a universal judgement call.
    The future gen of classical music community will have to render its own valuations.
    My only purpose is to attempt to shed light on this issue,,of who is who among Modern Composers.
    Who is authentic, and who is post modern style.
    There is a huge gap twix the 2 styles.
    Last edited by paulbest; Jun-13-2019 at 23:31.

  3. #78
    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulbest View Post
    ok GOT IT,,,Xenakis is following Varese, and trying to make something higher, newer. Elliott Carter picked up on Varesequeian ideas and made master works. whereas Xenakis is doodling around, making a big mess of things.
    43 minutes worth...
    Xenakis represents to me an even more radical approach than Varese or Stockhausen. Like the Greek idea of the Quadrivium, he is making "music" solely out of mathematics. If anything, I would think that you & many others would consider him to be worse than John Cage.
    Even more than Cage, Xenakis seems to have succeeded in completely removing his personality from the music, unless I'm missing something. One of his purely electronic pieces is so grating that it could cause ear damage. I've got the CD! The reason, is because he based it entirely on an algorithm, with no regard, apparently, for any aesthetic effect.
    I'm not saying I don't like Xenakis; I simply accept him for what he is. I tend to choose purchases of his work based on the instrumentation: whatever might produce some sort of "pleasant" listening experience. The "Electronic Works" CD is good for blowing out your tweeters.
    "The way out is through the door. Why is it that no one will use this method?"
    -Confucious

    "In Spring! In the creation of art it must be as it is in Spring!" -Arnold Schoenberg

    "We only become what we are by the radical and deep-seated refusal of that which others have made us." -Jean-Paul Sartre

  4. #79
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    @ Phillovesclassical


    Oh Lutoslawski ,,,I missed that posting,,,No I do not care for Lutoslawski,,But as I am fair minded,,i'll give him another shot..., from what I recall he is ok,,at least he is not post mod.


    Thanks Millions, for that upsot on Xenakis.
    NO WONDER
    I am having great trepidations about his *music*. No I will completely pass.

  5. #80
    Senior Member DaveM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulbest View Post
    Elliott Carter's concerto in the meantime, is a New Work, its brand new and awaits the audience's awareness.
    Hyperbole is inversely proportional to credibility. The Carter Concerto is over a half century old.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveM View Post
    Hyperbole is inversely proportional to credibility. The Carter Concerto is over a half century old.
    Sure I was aware the concerto was not *new% in terms of actual historical time (though I had no idea when it was actually written, ,,wait the YT says 1974,,,thats more than ,,OK, you did say *over*,,,a half century,,which makes the work *dated*...But lets put aside actual historical date,,,lets consider the idea as *The New Sound*, as per 2nd Viennese/Vareseque, definitely not Stravinskyian.


    I consider 2nd Viennese/Varese ,,The New Classical Model.


    Carter's concerto sounds within this sphere of creative expression.
    And so completes this style of expression.


    As Bach was the end of baroque, Beethoven the end of the Classical, ,,the Modern Era , has no clear beginnings, no clear distinct endings. ,,,or does it,,have clear endings.
    Henze passes with Elliott Carter in 2012. Now I'm am not superstitious , or anything, BUT,,,you don't consider that,,,synchronicity. 2 distinct events, in time/space, yet in unison connected?
    In do.


    I am not making all this up as I go,,I am telling you, when my intuition function, kicks in, she's goes....


    Anyway,,back to what I was saying,,,now where was I,,,,,,

    Oh yes, Incredulity , on my part,,tagging the idea of *New* on the 60 yr old concerto..Heck that's a long time ago,,,yet in the creative arts, where a work has not been given status, it retains its sense of *newness* until its actually heard and digested over time.

    I bet the concerto has not been performed here in the USA, no morev than 10 times live,,and maybe 10 times in Europe. Only 1 in 10 concert goers have actually heard the work live and only 1 in 10 have the cd in their collections.
    = its New.


    Its a phenomenal work, and one destined to become greater than and more popular than Beethoven;s 5 piano concertos.
    Destiny always takes time to reveal itself in these matters of art.
    Look at Mahler,,,w/o Bernstein, and Bruno Walter, Mahler would be lost to posterity.


    Elliott Carter's time has not arrived, due to the nature of this creative expression, the depths of his genius.
    Takes genius to know (ie hear) genius.

    the classical community is , for the most part, not yet ready to embrace Elliott Carter as *the new kid on the block*.
    as one TC member here advocated, *Be patient, these things take time*.

  7. #82
    Senior Member DaveM's Avatar
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    ^^^ Look, you said 'brand new'. If you mean something else, then take a little time to express it in the first place without all the exaggerations.You're throwing all sorts of things against the wall, but very little is sticking so you spend a lot of time explaining a previous post or backtracking when it's questioned.

    Re: "Its a phenomenal work, and one destined to become greater than and more popular than Beethoven's 5 piano concertos."

    No, after 54 years, it shows absolutely no sign of being considered as a work in the same league as Beethoven's concertos.
    Last edited by DaveM; Jun-14-2019 at 03:17.

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  9. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveM View Post
    ^^^ Look, you said 'brand new'. If you mean something else, then take a little time to express it in the first place without all the exaggerations.You're throwing all sorts of things against the wall, but very little is sticking so you spend a lot of time explaining a previous post or backtracking when it's questioned.

    Re: "Its a phenomenal work, and one destined to become greater than and more popular than Beethoven's 5 piano concertos."

    No, after 54 years, it shows absolutely no sign of being considered as a work in the same league as Beethoven's concertos.
    You know, I have to completely agree with youl. I mean making opinions, based on some hard factsk, is one thing,,,*brand new*,,what I mean is that, its rarely if ever played on classical FM radio, brought up in musical discussions.
    If it were well know, that is not brand new,,,we might see it programed at least 1 or 2 x's a year here in the USA.

    I could be wrong, maybe some US orch is performing the work as I type.


    I mean, if we consider the concerto in all its aspects,,,its not like composers are flinging a piano concerto out daily on the same level.
    Can you name one PC scored here in the USA past 50 yrs to match the musical quality of Carter's ?


    I have no idea how the Viennese reacted to a new Beethoven piano concerto...was it FLASH NEWS hot off the press and crowds packed the halls to witness the premiere?
    History may not tell us. What we do know is that the 5 receive plenty of attention, .

    I have no interest in any of them. Never did in 35 yrs. I attempted to like the great 5th, his best,,but never worked out.
    Elliott Carter's, was love at 1st hearing.
    Just sayin

    Perhaps Carter's concerto may not gain popularity. But then , many of us here are curious as to what the future holds for all classical music.

    If only we had a crystal ball, and could see how things worked out in the long run, 100 years from now.


    If Elliott Carter in 100 yrs from now, does gain priority over the Beethoven 5,,,,poor thinking,,,,lost thought,,,,the Q here is, what will be the state of classical music in 100 yrs, the orchestras, soloists, conducting, recordings.

    Hillary Hahn is the biggest sensation in all classical music, been that way past 15+ years...She continues to packed houses, solid, world over.
    This shows some interest in this art is alive and well.


    My guess is a generation will arrive that will be more,,enlightened, sensitive, curious , open minded,,to all and every major composer past 300 yrs,,,with no limitations.

    That is to say, Szymanowski will see sunshine, Pettersson will be heard, fairly, Schnittke will gain stature and become as often mentioned as Beethoven is today.,..,,and Elliott Carter will not only be given his rightful dues,,but will be granted the acclaim as not only America's greatest composer, but the only true great composer born on American soil.
    = Copland will be nothing more than dental office and elevator music. Ives will be completely forgotten, as if he never existed.


    EDIT"
    and I ain;t backing off anything just written.

    Chiseled in stone.
    Last edited by paulbest; Jun-14-2019 at 04:07.

  10. #84
    Senior Member Larkenfield's Avatar
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    Many 20th-century composers would do anything but comfort their listeners, and Carter was usually one of them, though they could quite often be probing, intriguing and challenging, and Carter was usually one of them:

    Last edited by Larkenfield; Jun-14-2019 at 05:39.
    "That's all Folks!"

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  12. #85
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    so far I've not heard any American composer approaching the art of Elliott Carter.
    Just to be clear.
    Nice post Larkenfield.

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    so far I've not heard any American composer approaching the art of Elliott Carter. Just to be clear

    I'd say the most important there is "I've" … just to be clear … since "I've" heard the art of many American composers transcend Elliot Carter.

    Of living composers I would count first among them Michael Daugherty's "Trail of Tears" Flute Concerto I heard in concert in the recent past.
    Last edited by larold; Jun-14-2019 at 20:20.

  14. #87
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    ,,,*I've*,,,,you've got me,,,such crappy English, well I am from New Alwins,,we speak deep southern....I have not as yet heard ,,,how 's that,,better?
    I'll give Mike's work a shot.
    I could be mistaken.

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