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Thread: Swan Lake

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbhaub View Post
    Not a satire, but something quite far from Tchaikovsky's conception:Gay Swan Lake
    I regard this as a culture war piece and not related to Tchaikovsky. Ergo, 'quite far from PIT's conception' and best left out of this discussion lest it offends. I'm personally offended by it.
    Last edited by Christabel; Jul-02-2020 at 23:39.

  2. #17
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    This 1969 Kirov Ballet version, I think, is definitely worth checking out, despite the cuts.

    Last edited by Autumn Leaves; Aug-15-2020 at 00:52.

  3. #18
    Senior Member Marsilius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christabel View Post
    I regard this as a culture war piece and not related to Tchaikovsky...
    Apart from the fact that... duhhh... it is set to Tchaikovsky's score.

  4. #19
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    It was the first ballet I have seen. And it was really a wonderful, I think that's where our "romance" with ballet began, because it's love at first sight. All this drama, smooth lines, the best music. my wife even cried.Super.

  5. #20
    Senior Member MAS's Avatar
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    I love Swan Lake in all of its incarnations, whether legit, the Ballet Trocadero, or Matthew Bourne’s reimagining. The Trocadero dancers are astonishing; satire or no, they dance extremely well. I wouldn’t call it “Gay Swan Lake,” they stick to the story, and there are only a few moments of camp, mostly for laughs (the falling of feathers on The Swan, for instance). You wouldn’t know the ballerinas were boys, unless you knew in advance so good are they.
    Last edited by MAS; Oct-23-2020 at 22:43.

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  7. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marsilius View Post
    Apart from the fact that... duhhh... it is set to Tchaikovsky's score.
    My grandchildren dance to Tchaikovsky; does this mean it's legitimate ballet because he wrote the music?

  8. #22
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    This is taking ballet just a bit too far!!

    https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...Sergei%20Filin.

  9. #23
    Senior Member JAS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAS View Post
    I love Swan Lake in all of its incarnations, whether legit, the Ballet Trocadero, or Matthew Bourne’s reimagining. The Trocadero dancers are astonishing; satire or no, they dance extremely well. I wouldn’t call it “Gay Swan Lake,” they stick to the story, and there are only a few moments of camp, mostly for laughs (the falling of feathers on The Swan, for instance). You wouldn’t know the ballerinas were boys, unless you knew in advance so good are they.
    One of my favorites of their bits is when one dancer in the line falls down, then stays there until they come back, then just gets up and proceeds as if nothing happened. There is an interesting documentary on the troupe which points out that they have to get custom made shoes since they don't normally come in their sizes.

  10. #24
    Senior Member Marsilius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christabel View Post
    My grandchildren dance to Tchaikovsky; does this mean it's legitimate ballet because he wrote the music?
    What an odd question! We were debating whether or not the Swan Lake production by the highly respected choreographer Matthew Bourne "is related to Tchaikovsky". You claimed it was not (see above). I pointed out that Bourne's use of Tchaikovsky's score most certainly creates a relationship between a professionally-produced ballet and the composer (though I would concede that any relationship between Bourne and Marius Petipa is pretty non-existent). Your grandchildren too are clearly forging a relationship with Tchaikovsky's music as they dance to it, and only you can tell us whether their efforts amount to something we might recognize as ballet - but it might well do so if they are, say, teenagers at a class.

  11. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marsilius View Post
    What an odd question! We were debating whether or not the Swan Lake production by the highly respected choreographer Matthew Bourne "is related to Tchaikovsky". You claimed it was not (see above). I pointed out that Bourne's use of Tchaikovsky's score most certainly creates a relationship between a professionally-produced ballet and the composer (though I would concede that any relationship between Bourne and Marius Petipa is pretty non-existent). Your grandchildren too are clearly forging a relationship with Tchaikovsky's music as they dance to it, and only you can tell us whether their efforts amount to something we might recognize as ballet - but it might well do so if they are, say, teenagers at a class.
    Ah, no; it was you who said "duh" and that a PC ballet was valued because PIT wrote the score - in your post number #18.

  12. #26
    Senior Member Marsilius's Avatar
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    No, in post 18 I pointed out that, contrary to your assertion that you regarded Bourne's Swan Lake as "not related to Tchaikovsky", there is a very apparent and obvious relationship simply because Bourne's Swan Lake has been set to Tchaikovsky's score.

    While you may have meant that MB's production is not related to Petipa's original production, that is not the same thing at all.

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  14. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marsilius View Post
    No, in post 18 I pointed out that, contrary to your assertion that you regarded Bourne's Swan Lake as "not related to Tchaikovsky", there is a very apparent and obvious relationship simply because Bourne's Swan Lake has been set to Tchaikovsky's score.

    While you may have meant that MB's production is not related to Petipa's original production, that is not the same thing at all.
    But you could have argued that coherently instead of writing the very adolescent "duh".

  15. #28
    Senior Member Marsilius's Avatar
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    It was impossible to argue anything against a response as utterly unsupported by evidence/argument as "I'm personally offended by it".

    I could have coped with "I personally find it crudely choreographed OR unoriginal OR poorly designed OR lacking in any other one of dozens of other objective criteria", but to dismiss it merely because it "offends" you adds nothing to reasoned discussion.

    As we cannot read your mind, do take the opportunity to tell us exactly what it is about Matthew Bourne's production that is so offensive.

  16. #29
    Senior Member Rogerx's Avatar
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    Tchaikovsky: Swan Lake, Op. 20

    Margot Fonteyn & Rudolf Nureyev

    Wiener Symphoniker & Mitglieder des Balletts der Wiener Staatsoper, John Lanchbery


    Watching this one last night
    “Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.” ― Mark Twain

    "Liberté, égalité, fraternité"

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  18. #30
    Senior Member JAS's Avatar
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    The clip attached to this story shows the power of music:

    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/202...gn=recommended

    At first, I thought it was perhaps exaggerating the degree of response, but you can see that she is not just following the music, but anticipating it, and remembering the facial expressions as well as the movements (to the extent that she is able to do them at her age and in a wheel chair).

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