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Thread: What is PRaT?

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    Senior Member bigshot's Avatar
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    Younger ears can hear a tiny sliver of frequencies that are higher than older people can hear, but those frequencies aren't generally present in recorded music anyway. It's more like young people can hear fluorescent lights with bad ballasts and CRT squeals better.

    When I moved into my house, I just hired an electrician to add another line drop for my theater. No problems at all with power. It's best to treat power problems at the source by just bringing in an electrician.
    Last edited by bigshot; Jun-17-2019 at 16:43.
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    Senior Member apricissimus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigshot View Post
    Younger ears can hear a tiny sliver of frequencies that are higher than older people can hear, but those frequencies aren't generally present in recorded music anyway. It's more like young people can hear fluorescent lights with bad ballasts and CRT squeals better.

    When I moved into my house, I just hired an electrician to add another line drop for my theater. No problems at all with power. It's best to treat power problems at the source by just bringing in an electrician.
    But couldn't there be high frequency overtones in normal music that young people could hear and older people cannot? Maybe it would make the timbre a little different or something?

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    Senior Member bigshot's Avatar
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    We're talking about frequencies above around 15kHz. Yes, there are a few instruments, primarily cymbals that contain upper harmonic information that high. But it's at a much lower volume than the fundamental frequencies and it is subject to auditory masking, so you don't actually hear it. It's kind of like the sound discarded by high bitrate lossy with a good codec like AAC. Yes, there are missing bits of sound, but they can't be heard anyway, so it doesn't matter.

    Another thing to consider is the relative amount of loss compared to the full audible spectrum. Say you are over 50 and you only hear up to 15kHz... you can hear 8 3/4 octaves instead of 9. Instead of hearing 63 notes on the musical scale, you can hear 61. It really isn't that big a deal. The problems come when you start losing hearing in the core frequencies that contain speech. That's the 1khz to 4kHz range and that is two whole octaves right in the sweet spot of our hearing. That kind of hearing loss comes from outright hearing damage.
    Last edited by bigshot; Jun-18-2019 at 00:03.
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    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    Rick Beato did a hearing test, and younger people with pristine hearing COULD tell differences. So who should I believe, Rick Beato or some guy on the internet in his underwear?
    BTW, some people have a lot of faith in these MP3 codecs. You know, they were developed by human beings, who are fallible. What about this "psychoacoustic masking?"
    Last edited by millionrainbows; Jun-18-2019 at 19:33.
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    Senior Member bigshot's Avatar
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    What could they tell the difference between? Lossy audio? Super audible frequencies? PRaT and no PRaT? Can you link me to that test please? I'm interested.
    Last edited by bigshot; Jun-18-2019 at 20:23.
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    Senior Member apricissimus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigshot View Post
    What could they tell the difference between? Lossy audio? Super audible frequencies? PRaT and no PRaT? Can you link me to that test please? I'm interested.
    I think this is what he's talking about.


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    Senior Member bigshot's Avatar
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    What codec is he talking about? I can just barely discern 320 Fraunhofer MP3 with some specific music, but I can't discern a difference with 320 LAME or 256 AAC. Codecs matter as much as data rates.

    One other problem... Six trials isn't enough. The odds of randomly being right four out of six times is very high. The more trials, the less effect random chance has to skew the results. This is fine as an informal demonstration though.

    He seems to be saying though that lossy is fine. I don't know if this is what million rainbows was referring to.
    Last edited by bigshot; Jun-18-2019 at 20:54.
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    Senior Member apricissimus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigshot View Post
    What codec is he talking about? I can just barely discern 320 Fraunhofer MP3 with some specific music, but I can't discern a difference with 320 LAME or 256 AAC. Codecs matter as much as data rates.

    One other problem... Six trials isn't enough. The odds of randomly being right four out of six times is very high. The more trials, the less effect random chance has to skew the results. This is fine as an informal demonstration though.

    He seems to be saying though that lossy is fine. I don't know if this is what million rainbows was referring to.
    For the record, if you're just randomly guessing in this test, with six tracks, three samples each, with one "correct" answer, the probabilities are:

    0 correct: 8.8%
    1 correct: 26.3%
    2 correct: 32.9%
    3 correct: 21.9%
    4 correct: 8.2%
    5 correct: 1.6%
    6 correct: 0.1%

    So there's about an 8.2% chance of getting four correct (the result in the video) just by guessing. That's not really a low enough probability to conclude anything. (And in any case, you'd need more tests to make get any kind of statistically significant result.)
    Last edited by apricissimus; Jun-18-2019 at 20:59.

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    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    bigshot: never satisfied, always skeptical, too critical of others' experience.
    "The way out is through the door. Why is it that no one will use this method?"
    -Confucious

    "In Spring! In the creation of art it must be as it is in Spring!" -Arnold Schoenberg

    "We only become what we are by the radical and deep-seated refusal of that which others have made us." -Jean-Paul Sartre

    "I don't mind dying, as long as I can still breathe." ---Me

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    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    I wonder what bigshot thinks of this statement at 8:19:

    https://youtu.be/_bqDAvhm_RU

    "The way out is through the door. Why is it that no one will use this method?"
    -Confucious

    "In Spring! In the creation of art it must be as it is in Spring!" -Arnold Schoenberg

    "We only become what we are by the radical and deep-seated refusal of that which others have made us." -Jean-Paul Sartre

    "I don't mind dying, as long as I can still breathe." ---Me

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    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    "The way out is through the door. Why is it that no one will use this method?"
    -Confucious

    "In Spring! In the creation of art it must be as it is in Spring!" -Arnold Schoenberg

    "We only become what we are by the radical and deep-seated refusal of that which others have made us." -Jean-Paul Sartre

    "I don't mind dying, as long as I can still breathe." ---Me

  13. Likes Larkenfield liked this post
  14. #27
    Senior Member apricissimus's Avatar
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    At what point do these differences (whether real or not) impede your enjoyment of music?

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    Senior Member bigshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millionrainbows View Post
    I wonder what bigshot thinks of this statement at 8:19:
    "...the evidence would seem to suggest that distinctive amplifier sounds, if they exist at all, are so minute that they form a poor basis for choosing one amplifier over another. Certainly there are differences between amps, but we are unlikely to hear them." -Stereo Review January 1987 Pg 78 https://www.americanradiohistory.com...ew-1987-01.pdf

    Certainly it's possible to design an amplifier that performs out of spec and deliberately alters the sound. I'm sure someone somewhere has done that. But I don't know why anyone would want to do that, and I really don't know why anyone would buy a piece of hobbled gear like that when there's plenty of inexpensive components that perform perfectly.

    Choose one amp over another for more power. better features, build quality, visual appeal, etc. Not sound.

    I'm curious why you keep going back to the same stereo salesmen's videos over and over. Is this your only source of information?
    Last edited by bigshot; Jun-19-2019 at 18:02.
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  16. #29
    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigshot View Post
    I'm curious why you keep going back to the same stereo salesmen's videos over and over. Is this your only source of information?
    How dare you question me!
    "The way out is through the door. Why is it that no one will use this method?"
    -Confucious

    "In Spring! In the creation of art it must be as it is in Spring!" -Arnold Schoenberg

    "We only become what we are by the radical and deep-seated refusal of that which others have made us." -Jean-Paul Sartre

    "I don't mind dying, as long as I can still breathe." ---Me

  17. #30
    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    "The way out is through the door. Why is it that no one will use this method?"
    -Confucious

    "In Spring! In the creation of art it must be as it is in Spring!" -Arnold Schoenberg

    "We only become what we are by the radical and deep-seated refusal of that which others have made us." -Jean-Paul Sartre

    "I don't mind dying, as long as I can still breathe." ---Me

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