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Thread: What is PRaT?

  1. #31
    Senior Member bigshot's Avatar
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    Hey! Are you the guy with the hang dog face, or the santa claus in the Hawaiian shirt?

    Here is a fun thread all about PS Audio's "Noise Harvester"
    http://www.internationalskeptics.com...ad.php?t=70890

    And another about PS Audio's "Multi Wave II Plus"
    https://audiokarma.org/forums/index....ake-oil.34820/

    Where there's smoke...
    Last edited by bigshot; Jun-27-2019 at 23:39.
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  2. #32
    Senior Member TwoFlutesOneTrumpet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EddieRUKiddingVarese View Post
    But the cables, don't forget the cables
    And the air, don't forget to buy audiophile quality air.

  3. #33
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    I'm waiting for some audiophile company to claim that ordinary air distorts sound and you have to listen to music in an environment of pure Argon (then find their repeat business falls precipitously).

  4. #34
    Senior Member Larkenfield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigshot View Post
    "...the evidence would seem to suggest that distinctive amplifier sounds, if they exist at all, are so minute that they form a poor basis for choosing one amplifier over another. Certainly there are differences between amps, but we are unlikely to hear them." -Stereo Review January 1987 Pg 78 https://www.americanradiohistory.com...ew-1987-01.pdf

    Certainly it's possible to design an amplifier that performs out of spec and deliberately alters the sound. I'm sure someone somewhere has done that. But I don't know why anyone would want to do that, and I really don't know why anyone would buy a piece of hobbled gear like that when there's plenty of inexpensive components that perform perfectly.

    Choose one amp over another for more power. better features, build quality, visual appeal, etc. Not sound.

    I'm curious why you keep going back to the same stereo salesmen's videos over and over. Is this your only source of information?
    You should really get your head out of those condescending skeptic websites every once in a while and talk to living musicians. Not choosing an amp on the basis of sound is just not done. People can tell. I’ve owned it least 10 different amps and receivers and they all sounded noticeably different in musicality, warmth and quality, and one can notice the difference after living with them for a while because one’s emotional response is slightly different to each one. Marantz, NAD and hybrid/tube amps do not sound the same. You are a confirmed debunker and a skeptic who has referred to others as “audiophools” and apparently lost the ability to hear anything directly through personal experience to hear the subtle differences, nor do you have any apparent appreciation of analog gear that most musicians prefer, at least as instrumentalists, and many enjoy in home audio. In keeping with that soulless clinical approach, let’s just throw darts at a dartboard with pictures of amps on it for all the difference it makes. What a great service you’ve been providing by trying to desensitize listeners to the miraculous subtleties of sound. There’s no substitute for hearing each piece of equipment directly.
    Last edited by Larkenfield; Jun-28-2019 at 03:20.
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  6. #35
    Senior Member bigshot's Avatar
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    Have you done a proper comparison of amps (proper impedance, line level matched, direct A/B switched, blind)? If you have, and you've found specific brands and models that sound clearly different, I would like to know about it. If you have access to these colored amps, I would be interested in borrowing the most clearly different one for a bit. I have a group put together who would be willing to conduct listening tests to verify your findings and do measurements to find out what exactly is making them sound different.

    I've heard lots of anecdotal reports of amps that sound different, but I have yet to find a person who has verified a difference with a controlled listening test. All of the controlled tests I've done indicate that all amps sound the same. Stereo Review found out the same thing when they did their test...

    "...the evidence would seem to suggest that distinctive amplifier sounds, if they exist at all, are so minute that they form a poor basis for choosing one amplifier over another. Certainly there are differences between amps, but we are unlikely to hear them." -Stereo Review January 1987 Pg 78 https://www.americanradiohistory.com...ew-1987-01.pdf

    It's been my experience, having a lot of musician friends, that musicians are the best people to talk to about music. The best people to talk to about sound fidelity are sound engineers. The whole idea is to create a consistent and repeatable sound calibration that presents the music as close as possible to the way it sounds in the final mix approved by the musicians. If you want to do that with your own system, the big task will involve your speakers and room, not the amp you use.

    If you want to deliberately alter the sound and not hear what the musicians heard when they were approving the mix, that is perfectly fine. The best way to do that is with a flat clean system and signal processing like salt and pepper to taste.
    Last edited by bigshot; Jun-28-2019 at 16:59.
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  7. #36
    Senior Member jegreenwood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baron Scarpia View Post
    I'm waiting for some audiophile company to claim that ordinary air distorts sound and you have to listen to music in an environment of pure Argon (then find their repeat business falls precipitously).
    Argon's not bad. But don't try helium. All the woodwinds start squeaking.

  8. #37
    Senior Member bigshot's Avatar
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    Remember Brilliant Pebbles? http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina31.htm

    It isn't good enough to just come up with a crazy sales pitch. You have to get a publication to review it. 6moon Audio reviewed Brilliant Pebbles favorably. They've since removed the review from their site.

    The Machina Dynamica site looks like web 1.0 but it's full of fun entertainment. http://www.machinadynamica.com/index.html
    Last edited by bigshot; Jun-28-2019 at 17:07.
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    If any of your components affect the "Pace, Rhythm and Timing" of your music, then there's something seriously wrong. As a musician, I'd say those three elements are up to the musicians, not the gear!

  10. #39
    Senior Member Larkenfield's Avatar
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    PRaT is to music and sound systems as WHitNey is to airplane engines.
    Last edited by Larkenfield; Jul-01-2019 at 13:29.
    "That's all Folks!"

  11. #40
    Senior Member jegreenwood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larkenfield View Post
    "Pace, Rhythm and Timing. Defining it, as with most audiophile terms, is more or less an exercise in futility." It's discussed on Audiogon.
    I decided to go back and read an Audiogon thread from 2005. Surprisingly, it had more substance than I expected. I responded in particular to the post about switching from a British "hi-PRaT" system to Audio Research electronics. Back around 1990 I switched my pre-amp/amp from Audio Research to Spectral. The Spectral system responded to transients more quickly than the ARC. It was very exciting to listen to. But I tired of it over time (plus several breakdowns in the equipment, which required lengthy visits to the manufacturer). In 2006 I used part of a large bonus to switch to Ayre electronics. Not as much PRaT but but a more solid overall sound.

    And before someone asks, I did no blind testing, but I did have each amp in my system for years. I think that counts for something. All three amps were used with Martin Logan Sequel IIs (gone now).
    Last edited by jegreenwood; Jul-01-2019 at 13:34.

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  13. #41
    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kontrapunctus View Post
    If any of your components affect the "Pace, Rhythm and Timing" of your music, then there's something seriously wrong. As a musician, I'd say those three elements are up to the musicians, not the gear!
    Anyone who tells you that there is no difference in the audible sound of different power amps is full of you-know-what!
    "The way out is through the door. Why is it that no one will use this method?"
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    "We only become what we are by the radical and deep-seated refusal of that which others have made us." -Jean-Paul Sartre

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  14. #42
    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larkenfield View Post
    You should really get your head out of those condescending skeptic websites every once in a while
    That's so true!
    "The way out is through the door. Why is it that no one will use this method?"
    -Confucious

    "In Spring! In the creation of art it must be as it is in Spring!" -Arnold Schoenberg

    "We only become what we are by the radical and deep-seated refusal of that which others have made us." -Jean-Paul Sartre

    "I don't mind dying, as long as I can still breathe." ---Me

  15. #43
    Senior Member bigshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millionrainbows View Post
    Anyone who tells you that there is no difference in the audible sound of different power amps is full of you-know-what!
    "...the evidence would seem to suggest that distinctive amplifier sounds, if they exist at all, are so minute that they form a poor basis for choosing one amplifier over another. Certainly there are differences between amps, but we are unlikely to hear them." -Stereo Review January 1987 Pg 78 https://www.americanradiohistory.com...ew-1987-01.pdf
    CD Sound Is All You Need: http://xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
    AES Audio Myths Seminar: http://youtu.be/BYTlN6wjcvQ
    AES Damn Lies Seminar: http://youtu.be/Zvireu2SGZM

  16. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by millionrainbows View Post
    Anyone who tells you that there is no difference in the audible sound of different power amps is full of you-know-what!
    Your response has nothing to do with my comment. I'm saying that if a component, say an amp, audibly affects the rhythm, that goes WAY beyond simply sounding different. For the record, I do hear major differences between amps, but I'm referring to transparency, revelation of details, a warm or cold/sterile sound, etc., not the rhythm of the music.

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