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Thread: Top 100 Solo Piano Works

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beebert View Post
    Even if I do have Chopin in high esteem, I do not hold him as high as your system showed. I definitively hold Schubert higher than Chopin. Most probably Schumann too.
    Then both the methods that I used and member Partita suggested do not have a good accuracy.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allerius View Post
    So, you suggest now that one list may have "more credibility" than the other, thus being better, but when I stated that "the fact that the TC lists involved the participations of many members that seem to be experienced listeners gives some credit to it" in post #16 your answer was that you're not suggesting that one list is better than another. A contradiction. Funny, huh?
    Now you're just plain making up silly stories.

    Can you show where you reckon I suggested what you ascribe to me above: 'one list may have "more credibility" than the other, thus being better'

    That is utterly false. The comment I made was much more guarded, and is certainly nothing like consistent with what you have stated.

    I said that there is some credibility associated with the T-C results because they are based a sample of members, not just the opinion of one person. This is a simple fact based on elementary statistics. Note that I said "some credibility". I didn't say anything about the T-C results being "better", as you allege. You have made that up to suit your feeble argument.

    Come on, let's see what you have to say about this.

    You are obviously clutching at straws if you feel the need to resort to a shabby trick like this.
    Last edited by Partita; Jul-01-2019 at 18:45.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allerius View Post
    I already answered why I didn't use the weighting system you seem to favour nor a percentual approach, and if you didn't understand that, I suggest you to read again post #21. The conclusion that the OP have Chopin in high esteem can be obtained through the system I used too, by the way, so it's not suprising at all.
    I deal with this second part of your last reply to me, concerning weighting method, separately.

    My point in discussing this initially was to show that the results can be highly sensitive to the weighting system used. This is fairly obvious actually.

    I thought you had accepted that your weighting method might have been better if you had adopted weights that decline by a given percentage, rather than by a single constant number. You didn't do so because I understood that you found it a more complicated procedure.

    I have done it for you. It is very easy. It shows that Chopin comes out ahead of Beethoven, the reverse of what you had come up with. I guess you may have found this to be somewhat awkward.

    My other point was that your "squaring" procedure is bizarre. I have never come across anything similar in other poll assessments. It looks to me as if you may have done it to bolster Beethoven's apparent "lead" over other composers.

    I'm not expressing any opinion about what is the best set of weights, just pointing out the consequences if you switch from arithmetically declining to geometrically declining weights, in terms of the No 1 and No 2 ranks.
    Last edited by Partita; Jul-01-2019 at 19:11.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Partita View Post
    Now you're just plain making up silly stories.

    Can you show where you reckon I suggested what you ascribe to me above: 'one list may have "more credibility" than the other, thus being better'

    That is utterly false. The comment I made was much more guarded, and is certainly nothing like consistent with what you have stated.

    I said that there is some credibility associated with the T-C results because they are based a sample of members, not just the opinion of one person. This is a simple fact based on elementary statistics. Note that I said "some credibility". I didn't say anything about the T-C results being "better", as you allege. You have made that up to suit your feeble argument.

    Come on, let's see what you have to say about this.

    You are obviously clutching at straws if you feel the need to resort to a shabby trick like this.
    It's obvious that it's better to have some credibility about any kind of results you have from a data collection than none. This is trivial. Whatever, you know that. You're just playing with words to continue this nonsensical discussion about a meaningless subject, and I can only wonder why.

    Quote Originally Posted by Partita View Post
    My point in discussing this initially was to show that the results can be highly sensitive to the weighting system used. This is fairly obvious actually.
    Yes, it is, and I already have agreed with you on this.


    Quote Originally Posted by Partita View Post
    I thought you had accepted that your weighting method might have been better if you had adopted weights that decline by a given percentage, rather than by a single constant number. You didn't do so because I understood that you found it a more complicated procedure.
    Exactly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Partita View Post
    I have done it for you. It is very easy. It shows that Chopin comes out ahead of Beethoven, the reverse of what you had come up with. I guess you may have found this to be somewhat awkward.
    False. In the first moment, when I was testing the weighting system I would use, I did only the scores for Beethoven and Bach, and when I realized that the latter had half the score of the former in the system you propose (the first I tested) I decided to dismiss it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Partita View Post
    My other point was that your "squaring" procedure is bizarre. I have never come across anything similar in other poll assessments.
    No, it's not. It's a method like any other. As I have already told you twice before, it's somewhat (not completely) similar to the standard deviation formula.

    Quote Originally Posted by Partita View Post
    It looks to me as if you may have done it to bolster Beethoven's apparent "lead" over other composers.
    Wrong shot. I didn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Partita View Post
    I'm not expressing any opinion about what is the best set of weights, just pointing out the consequences if you switch from arithmetically declining to geometrically declining weights, in terms of the No 1 and No 2 ranks.
    Great! But why spend so much time and effort doing so if I've already expressed that I know such consequences?
    Last edited by Xisten267; Jul-01-2019 at 20:15.

  5. #35
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    The one obvious conclusion of this thread is that a list made from the personal preferences of many people has more validity than a list based on the preferences of one person. Of course, it's best to take these lists lightly and not give them serious weight.

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  7. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bulldog View Post
    The one obvious conclusion of this thread is that a list made from the personal preferences of many people has more validity than a list based on the preferences of one person. Of course, it's best to take these lists lightly and not give them serious weight.
    i fully agree with that.

  8. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allerius View Post
    It's obvious that it's better to have some credibility about any kind of results you have from a data collection than none. This is trivial. Whatever, you know that. You're just playing with words to continue this nonsensical discussion about a meaningless subject, and I can only wonder why.
    Why?

    That's obvious. I don't like being very badly mis-quoted, as you have done in your post #24.

    I asked you to justify your assertion that I suggested "one list may have "more credibility" than the other, thus being better'.

    I never said or implied anything of the sort. You have twisted what I actually said out of all recognition.

    Your answer above is completely irrelevant.

  9. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Partita View Post
    Why?

    That's obvious. I don't like being very badly mis-quoted, as you have done in your post #24.

    I asked you to justify your assertion that I suggested "one list may have "more credibility" than the other, thus being better'.

    I never said or implied anything of the sort. You have twisted what I actually said out of all recognition.

    Your answer above is completely irrelevant.
    Isn't all this discussion irrelevant?

    ...

    Please, make a better ranking if you can. See, I would have not published any results had I known they would be followed by this tiresome, pointless discussion.
    Last edited by Xisten267; Jul-01-2019 at 22:19.

  10. #39
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    The second list looks better.

    I am glad to see Mozart k457 ranked as his best sonata - though baffled why K394 and K397 are both ranked and the incomparably superior c minor fantasy is not (k475).

    It seems odd too that Mozart would probably be ranked no 1 on piano concertos and is way down on solo piano.

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  12. #40
    Senior Member tdc's Avatar
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    Lately the Mozart piano pieces I've been enjoying most are k331, k333, k545 and piano concertos k271 and k595.

  13. #41
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    Weird list for a top 100. The 20th century composers are noticeably absent, besides token representations at the end. It’s more like a list of grewt works between Bach, Chopin, and Beethoven.

  14. #42
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    Here is the thread that generated the list of top 200 solo piano works I gave in post #10.

    https://www.talkclassical.com/14616-tc-top-200-recommended.html?highlight=

    It was started by "Air" in August 2011 and took several months to complete all the voting.


    On a quick look through, it involved a series of voting rounds taking 10 works at a time, 1-10, 11-20 etc up to 200. For each set there was a "nomination" round followed by a "voting round".

    The members who participated at each stage probably varied as the thread progressed. All participants were self-selecting. The degree of familiarity with the works being voted upon was likely to have been variable among the participants.

    It would seem that any attempt to update this poll with a fresh vote would involve much work.

  15. #43
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    ^ it is also clearly stated that this is a keyboard list, including harpsichord works. To simply take this as a piano works list is therefore incorrect.

  16. #44
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    ^ That's correct. Both the list of 100 in post #1 and the original list of 200 include "keyboard" works, excluding organ.

    I suppose it was decided to include all keyboard works in order to avoid disputes over whether any particular work could be played on piano or on other types of keyboard, or both.
    Last edited by Partita; Jul-05-2019 at 11:50.

  17. #45
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    Default Glaring omissions

    [QUOTE=Beebert;1656384]So, I found this list with a ranking of the 100 "greatest" works for piano ever written. What do you guys think of it? Agree with it? These kind of rankings are always hard to agree with or even possible to make sense of since much of these things are always a subjective. Anyway, in general I think it is a nice list. Are there any pieces here that you guys personally think shouldn't be there / are there any works that you guys are missing? Any works ranked too high or too low etc?


    1. Bach - Goldberg Variations
    2. Beethoven - Piano Sonata Op 111
    3. Bach - The Well-Tempererad Clavier
    4. Schubert - Piano Sonata D 960
    5. Chopin - 24 Preludes
    6. Beethoven - Piano Sonata Op 106 "Hammerklavier"
    7. Chopin - Ballade 4 Op 52
    8. Schumann - Fantasie in C major
    9. Ravel - Gaspard de la Nuit
    10. Beethoven - 33 Variations on a Waltz by Anton Diabelli Op 120
    11. Beethoven - Piano Sonata Op 109
    12. Debussy - Préludes Book 2
    13. Beethoven - Piano Sonata Op 110
    14. Beethoven - Piano Sonata Op 57 "Appassionata"
    15. Chopin - Études Op 25
    16. Liszt - Piano Sonata B minor
    17. Schubert Piano Sonata D 959
    18. Schumann - Davidsbündlertänze
    19. Chopin - Études Op 10
    20. Chopin - Barcarolle
    21. Brahms - Op 118
    22. Beethoven - Piano Sonata Op 53 "Waldstein"
    23. Schumann - Kreisleriana
    24. Schubert Piano Sonata D 894
    25. Prokofiev - Piano Sonata 7 Op 83 "Stalingrad"
    26. Debussy - Preludes Book 1
    27. Ravel - Miroirs
    28. Beethoven - Piano Sonata Op 101
    29. Chopin Piano Sonata 3 Op 58
    30. Shostakovich - 24 Preludes and Fugues
    31. Chopin - Polonaise Fantaisie
    32. Schubert - Four Impromptus D 899
    33. Beethoven - Piano Sonata Op 27 No. 2 "Moonlight"
    34. Chopin - Ballade 1 Op 23
    35. Bach - Partita 2 BWV 826
    36. Schumann - Études Symphoniques
    37. Prokofiev - Piano Sonata 6 Op 82
    38. Scriabin - Piano Sonata 5 Op 53
    39. Rachmaninoff - Preludes Op 32
    40. Mozart Piano Sonata K 310
    41. Schumann - Carnaval
    42. Schubert - Four Impromptus D 935
    43. Chopin - Nocturnes Op 48
    44. Bach - French Suite 5 BWV 816
    45. Brahms - Op 119
    46. Schumann - Kinderszenen
    47. Schubert - Piano Sonata D 845
    48. Schubert - Wanderer Fantasy D 760
    49. Beethoven - Piano Sonata Op 81a "Les Adieux"
    50. Brahms - Op 117
    51. Debussy - Images pour piano bk 2
    52. Chopin - Nocturnes Op 27
    53. Chopin - Piano Sonata 2 Op 35
    54. Haydn - Piano Sonata No. 62 Hob. XVI:52
    55. Mussorgsky - Pictures at an Exhibition
    56. Ravel - Le Tombeau de Couperin
    57. Bach - Italian Concerto BWV 971
    58. Debussy - Images pour piano bk 1
    59. Schubert - Piano Sonata D 958
    60. Brahms - Variations and Fugue on a Theme by Handel
    61. Brahms - Op 116
    62. Medtner - Sonata Romantica, Op. 53 No. 1
    63. Bach - Partita 6 BWV 830
    64. Chopin - Fantaisie in F minor
    65. Ligeti - Études Books 1-3
    66. Debussy - Etudes
    67. Debussy - Estampes
    68. Schubert - Six Moments Musicaux D 780
    69. Liszt - Années de pèlerinage
    70. Beethoven - Piano Sonata Op 90
    71. Bach - Overture in the French Style BWV 831
    72. Mozart - Piano Sonata K 333
    73. Schumann - Waldszenen
    74. Scriabin - Piano Sonata 9 Op 68
    75. Chopin - Mazurkas Op 56
    76. Scriabin Piano Sonata 2 Op 19
    77. Messiaen - Vingt regards sur l'enfant-Jésus
    78. Liszt - Études d'exécution transcendante
    79. Beethoven - Piano Sonata Op 13 "Pathétique"
    80. Webern - Variations for Piano
    81. Rachmaninoff - Preludes Op. 23
    82. Schubert - Drei Klavierstucke D 946
    83. Prokofiev - Piano Sonata 8 Op 84
    84. Beethoven - Piano Sonata Op 31 No. 2 "The Tempest"
    85. Ravel - Sonatine
    86. Schumann - Fantasiestücke Op 12
    87. Schumann - Papillons
    88. Berg - Piano Sonata Op 1
    89. Ravel - Jeux d'eau
    90. Beethoven Piano Sonata Op 28 "Pastorale"
    91. Bach - Inventions and Sinfonias BWV 772–801
    92. Albeniz - Iberia
    93. Ives - Piano Sonata No. 2 "Concord, Mass., 1840-60"
    94. Chopin - Polonaise Op 53 "Heroic"
    95. Haydn - Piano Sonata 60 Hob. XVI:50
    96. Mozart - Piano Sonata K. 331
    97. Chopin - Nocturnes Op 62
    98. Rachmaninoff - Études-tableaux Op 39
    99. Chopin - Ballade 3 Op 47
    100. Chopin Scherzo 4 Op 54

    Scarlatti, Handel, Mendelssohn, Tchaikovsky, Kabalevsky, Poulenc, Grieg, Granados, Bartok, Smetana, Villa-Lobos, C P E Bach, Clementi, Faure, Saint-Saens, Couperin, Rameau.

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