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Thread: Year 666 and 1666 satanic years, what if ...

  1. #61
    Senior Member millionrainbows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidA View Post
    If you are an atheist, though, what is the difference between right and wrong? Just a balance of chemicals? As Neitzche said: "When one gives up the Christian faith, one pulls up the right to Christian morality out from under one's feet." Philosophers he scorned as secret priests. Socialists, communists, democrats - all were equally deluded. "Naivety: as if morality could survive when the God who sanctions it is missing!" Why would we be disrespectful to the whole when the whole is just a mass of chemicals? Are chemicals things to be respected?
    Yes! Respect chemicals. This means, "Don't eat more than three gummies, or you'll be seeing God in a tortilla."
    Last edited by millionrainbows; Nov-27-2019 at 21:21.

  2. #62
    Senior Member DavidA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millionrainbows View Post
    No, no, no: I'm talking about "The New Testament" you referred to in your statement:



    There are lots of other Greek texts out there, some of them Gnostic and heretical, so you must make this very clear from now on.



    Many modern Christians think it is so. Apparently, you are an old-fashioned fundamentalist. Include The Garden of Eden, as well. This "garden" idea runs through history in several cultures. But you are a literalist, not a multi-cultural thinker, right?
    I would have thought it was obvious I was referring to the texts of the New Testament as the Book of Revelation is one of them and the number six hundred and sixty six is found there.
    Interesting you know so much about me that you can put a handle on my beliefs. I would not actually be so impertinent as to put a handle on you just based on supposition. Of course I am a multi cultural thinker, having visited many of the different cultures in the world and stayed in many different cultures. I don't know what you mean by a 'literalist'. You mean someone who thinks logically rather than thinking in circles? Or as a philosopher friend of mine puts it the art of making the obvious seem difficult.

  3. #63
    Senior Member Luchesi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidA View Post
    If you are an atheist, though, what is the difference between right and wrong? Just a balance of chemicals? As Neitzche said: "When one gives up the Christian faith, one pulls up the right to Christian morality out from under one's feet." Philosophers he scorned as secret priests. Socialists, communists, democrats - all were equally deluded. "Naivety: as if morality could survive when the God who sanctions it is missing!" Why would we be disrespectful to the whole when the whole is just a mass of chemicals? Are chemicals things to be respected?

    I’m not an atheist. I don't believe a human can be an atheist if they're honest with themselves and aware of what science has discovered about their origins. We have evolved to be 'theists', from very primitive days and very primitive ideas to the traditions of today and all the sophisticated theological research that's been done down through the centuries. The writings of theologians are very impressive to me and I'm very respectful of the fact that I can't follow all of it. It's too otherworldly to me and that's a good thing.

    Since you’re a historian and a believer I would really like to know your description of this god. What do you know about it that's based on repeatable evidence that would impress a person who's not from your tradition?
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes - but the preservation of fire!
    Gustav Mahler

  4. #64
    Senior Member DavidA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luchesi View Post
    I’m not an atheist. I don't believe a human can be an atheist if they're honest with themselves and aware of what science has discovered about their origins. We have evolved to be 'theists', from very primitive days and very primitive ideas to the traditions of today and all the sophisticated theological research that's been done down through the centuries. The writings of theologians are very impressive to me and I'm very respectful of the fact that I can't follow all of it. It's too otherworldly to me and that's a good thing.

    Since you’re a historian and a believer I would really like to know your description of this god. What do you know about it that's based on repeatable evidence that would impress a person who's not from your tradition?
    I never said you were an atheist. Apologies if if gave that impression. I did use the word ‘if’.
    The assumption we have ‘evolved’ to be theists is just that - an assumption. There is no scientific basis for such an argument. The fact is man is a creature made for worship. Why Hitler could hold impressive ‘worship’ services with himself as the god-figure and that in a modern western society. Why a pop idol is worshipped. Whatever the expression, mankind has always worshipped without any need to evolve. That may take many different forms but it is there.
    As a theist I believe the irrefutable evidence lies in the design of nature and the fact the Universe is rational points to a rational creator - designer. As a Christian I believe the historical evidence for my faith lies in the fact of the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.
    Last edited by DavidA; Nov-27-2019 at 22:30.

  5. #65
    Senior Member Luchesi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidA View Post
    I never said you were an atheist. Apologies if if gave that impression. I did use the word ‘if’.
    The assumption we have ‘evolved’ to be theists is just that - an assumption. There is no scientific basis for such an argument. The fact is man is a creature made for worship. Why Hitler could hold impressive ‘worship’ services with himself as the god-figure and that in a modern western society. Why a pop idol is worshipped. Whatever the expression, mankind has always worshipped without any need to evolve. That may take many different forms but it is there.
    As a theist I believe the irrefutable evidence lies in the design of nature and the fact the Universe is rational points to a rational creator - designer. As a Christian I believe the historical evidence for my faith lies in the fact of the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.
    He came back alive again, that's the crux of it? Therefore he co-created this universe 14 billion years ago.

    I'm a Christian in that I agree with their metaphorical interpretations. It's all built upon universals to synthesize a very large story. Who can disagree with an opinion about such an indefatigable view and need that we all have?
    Last edited by Luchesi; Nov-27-2019 at 22:49.
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes - but the preservation of fire!
    Gustav Mahler

  6. #66
    Senior Member DavidA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luchesi View Post
    He came back alive again, that's the crux of it? Therefore he co-created this universe 14 billion years ago.

    I'm a Christian in that I agree with their metaphorical interpretations. It's all built upon universals to synthesize a very large story. Who can disagree with an opinion about such indefatigable view and need that we all have?
    I can assure you that my interpretation is in line with the New Testament! Very unmetaphorical!

  7. #67
    Senior Member Luchesi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidA View Post
    I can assure you that my interpretation is in line with the New Testament! Very unmetaphorical!
    Yes, but why? From historians we know that the intentions of the authors of old writings cannot be known. We have faith that they really believed in the miraculous events. God stopped the universe and intervened with miracles. These are myths to live by. Without them many people would be rudderless.
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes - but the preservation of fire!
    Gustav Mahler

  8. #68
    Senior Member DavidA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luchesi View Post
    Yes, but why? From historians we know that the intentions of the authors of old writings cannot be known. We have faith that they really believed in the miraculous events. God stopped the universe and intervened with miracles. These are myths to live by. Without them many people would be rudderless.
    Funny you must read different historians to what I read. Else the whole of history goes up the shoot. They believed in miraculous events but they certainly weren’t stupid in doing so. They knew as well as we did that dead men didn’t rise after three days. Whatever they certainly didn’t regard it as a myth And there is no reason why we should. A disbelief in miracles is just as much a philosophical position as a belief in miracles. It depends how broad or narrow your mind is. Whether you take a narrow position that the material is all there is or whether you believe in a broader position that there are things beyond that. As Hamlet said there are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy
    Last edited by DavidA; Nov-27-2019 at 23:23.

  9. #69
    Senior Member Luchesi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidA View Post
    Funny you must read different historians to what I read. Else the whole of history goes up the shoot. They believed in miraculous events but they certainly weren’t stupid in doing so. They knew as well as we did that dead men didn’t rise after three days. Whatever they certainly didn’t regard it as a myth And there is no reason why we should. A disbelief in miracles is just as much a philosophical position as a belief in miracles. It depends how broad or narrow your mind is. Whether you take a narrow position that the material is all there is or whether you believe in a broader position that there are things beyond that. As Hamlet said there are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy
    My stumbling block is that I can't be sure that accepting human traditions wouldn't anger God. It seems to me that it would.
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes - but the preservation of fire!
    Gustav Mahler

  10. #70
    Senior Member Room2201974's Avatar
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    I'm holding out for the religion who has the god who is soooooooooo powerful, they can coin their own legal tender. That the almighty continues to fail in this regard seems to be a flaw in his or her abilities.
    "One man's symphony is another man's earworm." ~ riffing on a R.A.H quote.

  11. #71
    Senior Member Luchesi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Room2201974 View Post
    I'm holding out for the religion who has the god who is soooooooooo powerful, they can coin their own legal tender. That the almighty continues to fail in this regard seems to be a flaw in his or her abilities.
    God does everything. How else could it be?

    Jesus wants to save you. So let him.
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes - but the preservation of fire!
    Gustav Mahler

  12. #72
    Senior Member DavidA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luchesi View Post
    My stumbling block is that I can't be sure that accepting human traditions wouldn't anger God. It seems to me that it would.
    Except that God throughout history has worked through human beings who are made in his image

  13. #73
    Senior Member DavidA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Room2201974 View Post
    I'm holding out for the religion who has the god who is soooooooooo powerful, they can coin their own legal tender. That the almighty continues to fail in this regard seems to be a flaw in his or her abilities.
    Ot might that failure just be in the human beings?

  14. #74
    Senior Member Room2201974's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidA View Post
    Ot might that failure just be in the human beings?
    No, not true. I knew a guy who retired from the US Mint. He said we humans are coining legal tender pretty well these days.
    "One man's symphony is another man's earworm." ~ riffing on a R.A.H quote.

  15. #75
    Senior Member Luchesi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidA View Post
    Except that God throughout history has worked through human beings who are made in his image
    Yes, as humans we really think highly of ourselves.

    Even as a young child I tried to think respectful thoughts about what's eternal beyond what we can measure. My friends thought I was too superstitious, but you never know whether life is a test or not. In any case, respect can't hurt, and it's probably healthy for us.

    Something has to be eternal, right?
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes - but the preservation of fire!
    Gustav Mahler

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