Classical Music Forum banner
Status
Not open for further replies.

Did you know that "Classical Music is Inherently Racist?"

83K views 690 replies 66 participants last post by  Dan Ante 
#1 ·
I came across this gem in my google feed last night:

https://nmbx.newmusicusa.org/its-time-to-let-classical-music-die/

"Western classical music is not about culture. It's about whiteness. It's a combination of European traditions which serve the specious belief that whiteness has a culture-one that is superior to all others. Its main purpose is to be a cultural anchor for the myth of white supremacy. In that regard, people of color can never truly be pioneers of Western classical music. The best we can be are exotic guests: entertainment for the white audiences and an example of how Western classical music is more elite than the cultures of people of color."
:rolleyes:
 
#635 · (Edited)
Well MacLeod, those of you on the "Fascist Left" here don't exercise any restraint.

Besides that ludicrous article originally cited, "IT'S TIME TO LET CLASSICAL MUSIC DIE" by the imbecile named Nebal Maysaud, is pure politics...it certainly is not about music.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ad Astra
#43 · (Edited)
"Western classical music is not about culture. It’s about whiteness. It’s a combination of European traditions which serve the specious belief that whiteness has a culture—one that is superior to all others. Its main purpose is to be a cultural anchor for the myth of white supremacy. In that regard, people of color can never truly be pioneers of Western classical music. The best we can be are exotic guests: entertainment for the white audiences and an example of how Western classical music is more elite than the cultures of people of color."

I don't think I've ever read a more openly racist remark. It is full of hatred, pain, and misinformed.

You can't deny the humanity of another people, without diminishing your own.
 
#49 ·
I came across this gem in my google feed last night:

https://nmbx.newmusicusa.org/its-time-to-let-classical-music-die/

:rolleyes:
People who write this tripe are PC fanatics with an axe to grind and time on their hands. Of course classical music is about 'whiteness' like African music is about being black and Indian the colour of Indian people. Happens to be written by people of that colour skin. People who write this sort of thing are inherently racist themselves and are trying to project their own racism on to others. As one who has visited Africa, India and Asia and lived among the people in these countries, I can appreciate their music, while obviously feeling more at home with the music of my own culture.
 
#50 · (Edited)
I'm not going to speculate as to what Peterson has or hasn't read. I don't know. If a better name/shorthand for the type of argument Peterson describes under the banner "Cultural Marxism" is found, then I'll use it. As it is, this dynamic was apparently first described by Hegel:

"Oppressors-oppressed distinction or dominant-dominated opposition is a political concept. One of the first theorists to use it was Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel, who wrote in his 1802 The German Constitution: "The Catholics had been in the position of oppressors, and the Protestants of the oppressed". Karl Marx made the concept very influential, and it is often considered a fundamental element of Marxist analysis. Some have judged it simplistic. Many authors have adapted it to other contexts, including Friedrich Engels, Karl Marx, Vladimir Lenin, Antonio Gramsci, Simone Weil, Paulo Freire and others. It has been used in a variety of contexts, including discussions of the bourgeoisie and proletariat, imperialism, and self-determination."

As the Wiki article states, Marx later made the concept very influential, hence "Cultural Marxism" to denote this type of argument.

As for "co-opting" the term racism, that is in itself a loaded claim. No one owns that term. There's a dictionary definition; and it isn't contingent on who is doing the discriminating. Edit: Just wanted to add that I'm going to shut up now and get back to discussing music. :)
 
#60 ·
Very learned. I prefer to distinguish between those who have power and those who don't (power over their futures, within their abilities), but do you really think we should drop the distinction between oppressed and oppressor where it can be shown to apply? As you have shown we have known about the distinction and worried about what it means for our society and culture for quite some time. Labelling it cultural marxism, or any other term chosen to appeal immediately to the growing ranks of the far right (at least that is what they would have been called ten years ago), was unhelpful in implying that the distinction is of dubious value or importance. I cannot imagine anyone arguing with due regard for the facts that racism isn't a major factor in many people's lives without earning the label "racist".

That said, the piece linked to in the OP is a howl of pain from someone who feels excluded from so much of our shared cultural heritage. One can understand how he felt that way but wish that he didn't.
 
#58 ·
There have been a large number of purely political posts in this thread. This is a music forum. Posts can have some political content but must relate to music. Purely political posts should be placed in the Groups area. Some posts have been edited or deleted due to political content. Others have been left because we didn't wish to delete too many posts, but future purely political posts may be deleted.
 
G
#61 ·
I've had a quick read of the article referred to in the OP. It seems that the poor guy's had a rough time getting himself recognised in classical music circles in the USA and blames it all on his Middle Eastern herritage.

Without knowing a lot more about his musical credentials and the details of his problems, it's impossible to judge whether or not there's any substance in any of his claims. The real reason could be, for example, that he's a second or third rate musician, but of course he's never going to admit anything like that.

I can't say anything about the USA classical music scene, but in the UK I'd be very surprised if there was anything like the kind of problem he purports to exist in his own land, assuming that the various candidates are equally qualified etc.
 
#63 ·
Of course, as any artform, music has something to do with identity.

So, western classical music is primarily thought 'white' music, Hiphop is primarily thought black music as is the best Jazz music. But they are all on my shelves together and I can go to all concerts.

Very long ago I went to a concert of the reggae band 'Third World' on a Carribean island. My friend and me were about the only white folks in the audience. The whole atmosphere gave me the impression we were guests there, but it didn't feel very comfortable, just like it says in the article in the OP. I can sure imagine it feels about the same if you are at a regular classical music concert as a non white person.

Maybe we can invite the author of the article here on TC. Being here with us, he will soon find out that the white classical world is not unified at all and has black-and-white fights over each and every detail of 'our' classical musical identity. Behind our white facade, we kick *** over every detail and every preferred recording, composer, conductor etc. If he would only know this, his next visit to a regular Mozart-Beethoven concert would be most enjoyable for non-musical reasons alone.
 
#73 ·
The word racist is really problematic. Perhaps somebody should change it to mean "a person who likes to drive fast and is competitive." I could get behind the wheel of that. ;)
Perhaps we need to be more specific? Racist ideas, discriminatory policies, bigoted attitudes, etc... But I've seen Billy Joel accused of racism for his lyric "Catholic girls start much too late" which is ludicrous.
 
#71 ·
^ Nice to say that but it is a reality for a great number of people. If you don't care then you don't care. But can you really also seek to deny them the reality of their lives and experiences (to say nothing of basic statistics)? Personally, I think we should inform ourselves and care about the realities that our own comfort rest on. That seems to me to be to trying to throw off the thug within us all and to behave with decency and in a cultured way. It's all very nice to say "I don't get involved in politics" or "I keep my politics to myself" but is it decent? This applies to music as much as to jobs or law and order.

As for Peterson, I'm amazed and very depressed at how many people who are clearly well-educated can't see though him and his ugly agenda. It makes me feel uncomfortable spending so much time here and I have found myself backing away from the forum as a result ... but I accept that a detailed rebuttal of his nonsense isn't a subject for this forum.
 
#72 ·
^ Nice to say that but it is a reality for a great number of people. If you don't care then you don't care. But can you really also seek to deny them the reality of their lives and experiences (to say nothing of basic statistics)? Personally, I think we should inform ourselves and care about the realities that our own comfort rest on. That seems to me to be to trying to throw off the thug within us all and to behave with decency and in a cultured way. It's all very nice to say "I don't get involved in politics" or "I keep my politics to myself" but is it decent? This applies to music as much as to jobs or law and order.

As for Peterson, I'm amazed and very depressed at how many people who are clearly well-educated can't see though him and his ugly agenda. It makes me feel uncomfortable spending so much time here and I have found myself backing away from the forum as a result ... but I accept that a detailed rebuttal of his nonsense isn't a subject for this forum.
This piece does a pretty good job of deconstructing Peterson's frippery:

https://www.currentaffairs.org/2018/03/the-intellectual-we-deserve
 
G
#75 · (Edited)
The trouble is, I've never met a white supremacist who listened to classical music. In fact, most seem to like something with African-American base to it--blues or something like that--and they don't even appear to realize it. Whatever few of them that do listen to classical music do it out of a sense of "racial duty" rather than from any true understanding or love of the music. If you say you love classical because it's a white European expression then you really don't love it. You don't even get it.

Likewise, to dislike classical on that same basis is to say whatever you do like that's something other than white is the same. You don't love the music, you love the racial component you imagine made that music. You love it through a stunted intellectualism rather than with your heart, your emotions. I don't listen to music that way. I like Arabic music, for example, and I like the Arab-ness of the sound because it produces very interesting and enjoyable effects that Western music doesn't produce in me because I am used to the Western structure but Arab music has a different structure that violates the hell out of Western music and yet it's beautiful sounding. I could hate it on that same basis but I don't hate it because I hate Arabs.
 
#78 · (Edited)
Just because most of the music was written by white Anglo Saxons does not make it racist, in my opinion. If they tried to discourage other cultures and ethnic groups from playing it, that could be considered racist, or discriminate against other cultures and ethnic groups from writing it. But anyone can compose and hear it. Not even all Anglos are given a free ride and accepted into the concert halls because the music is talent driven, not racially driven. I think most of the good stuff is written by white Anglos to keep themselves from invading other countries, and sometimes it might even work until the next time. ;)
 
#83 ·
Just because most of the music was written by white Anglo Saxons does not make it racist, in my opinion. If they tried to discourage other cultures and ethnic groups from playing it, that could be considered racist, or discriminate against other cultures and ethnic groups from writing it. But anyone can compose and hear it. Not even all Anglos are given a free ride and accepted into the concert halls because the music is talent driven, not racially driven. I think most of the good stuff is written by white Anglos to keep themselves from invading other countries, and sometimes it might even work until the next time. ;)
Agree with you but just wondering; was the distincion here Western Classical Music? Meaning classical music from Eastern Europe is not inherently racist, supremacist or whatever? If that's the case then it's even more stupid. For me the term Anglo Saxons is not even including Central Europe or Northen Europe but I'm not 100% familiar with what the term actually means.
 
#81 ·
Roger Sessions' "The Black Masker's Ball"...is that racist?
 
#82 ·
#85 · (Edited)
If I were going to argue FOR the assertion that CM is racist, I would lend the notion some creedence by pointing out that CM is largely Germanic in its fully-developed form; you know, the 3 Bs.

I would then point out that permeating this area of music we know as "classical" is a strong influence of Germanic culture which is known not just for its great legacy of music, but unforunately for its hubris and mistakes of the past (WWII, The Holocaust).
The thread of antisemitism runs throughout Germanic history (Martin Luther), and throughout all of
Christianity as soon as it began to distinguish its differences from Judaism and separate from it.

This is not just a religious bias, but has a strong racial component.

Also, bear in mind that Germany has always felt that their culture is superior to ALL other cultures. This embedded idea is what allowed the hubris of the Third Reich to flower, and attempt to dominate the entire world. Germans have always had "a very healthy ego."

Does the idea of "Classical music being inherently racist" have any more creedence now?

 
#86 · (Edited)
Both the anti-racist ideology of equal rights and racism are entirely Western notions, so that whichever one supports one has been ideologically colonized. The very notion of rights as we know them is a Western one. In fact, the entire moral framework under which anti-racist thought operates is thoroughly Western. I'm not even sure that "morality" is the proper term to describe the traditional ethical customs of non-Western cultures since they seem to have so little in common with the meaning that attaches to that word in modern usage.
 
G
#87 ·
Both the anti-racist ideology of equal rights and racism are entirely Western notions, so that whichever one supports one has been ideologically colonized. The very notion of rights as we know them is a Western one. In fact, the entire moral framework under which anti-racist thought operates is thoroughly Western. I'm not even sure that "morality" is the proper term to describe the traditional ethical customs of non-Western cultures since they seem to have so little in common with the meaning that attaches to that word in modern usage.
Do you mean that non-Western cultures are not racist? Or just that notions of racism are not part of their moral analysis? I'm assuming that latter, since the former is obviously not true.
 
G
#98 · (Edited)
Yes

https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/documents/atrocity-crimes/Doc.11_declaration%20on%20race%20and%20racial%20prejudice.pdf

Article 2. Racism includes racist ideologies, prejudiced attitudes, discriminatory behaviour, structural arrangements and institutionalized practices resulting in racial inequality as well as the fallacious notion that discriminatory relations between groups are morally and scientifically justifiable; it is reflected in discriminatory provisions in legislation or regulations and discriminatory practices as well as in anti-social beliefs and acts; it hinders the development of its victims, perverts those who practise it, divides nations internally, impedes international co-operation and gives rise to political tensions between peoples; it is contrary to the fundamental principles of international law and, consequently, seriously disturbs international peace and security
I think conquest and execution of 'peoples' is probably covered here - don't you?
 
G
#108 · (Edited)
Well I'm sorry that no scholars are around to have an intellectual discourse with you and Winthrop (no disrespect intended to Oortune or SM who have also engaged with you.)

In the meantime, I'd look for something more practical to help us see whether CM is racist.
 
#109 · (Edited)
Well I'm sorry that no scholars are around to have an intellectual discourse with you and Winthrop (no disrespect intended to Oortune or SM who have also engaged with you.

In the meantime, I'd look for something more practical to help us see whether CM is racist.
What is the meaning of this harping on "intellectual discourse?" What are you trying to imply? Is determining what key terms actually mean impractical? Do you know what "practical" means?
 
#119 ·
I came across this gem in my google feed last night:

https://nmbx.newmusicusa.org/its-time-to-let-classical-music-die/

:rolleyes:
This kind of thing is very sad. The fine arts have long been a pastime for the wealthy elite, with everyone else having less access and opportunity to experience them. This is not the fault of the fine arts, but of the prevalence of economic inequality. The industrial revolution began a trend away from economic inequality, towards more access to the fine arts, including classical music, and not surprisingly, a boom in interest in classical music that lasted through much of the 20th century. But in recent years there has been a disturbing trend towards increasing economic inequality in much of the world. In western Europe and North America, we've seen a disturbing rise in anti-immigrant sentiments and "white nationalism" (though I don't see how those who would use racism as a weapon are entitled to be dignified with such a fancy term).

Sorry to get all political, but I see authors like this as using classical music as a scapegoat for political issues that have nothing whatsoever to do with it. Fortunately and not surprisingly, non-white classical musicians continue to make their presence increasingly felt.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
You have insufficient privileges to reply here.
Top