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Thread: Did you know that "Classical Music is Inherently Racist?"

  1. #601
    Senior Member Handelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millionrainbows View Post
    That sounds like fertile ground for hate and being exclusionary to other groups. If this is not a form of bigotry, then it is certainly aligning itself with such thought that produces racism.
    Problem is I have found the people who go on like this are liable to be the most guilty of the faults the imagine in others

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    Member julide's Avatar
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    Classical music is white framed but only according to americans. I don't really see anyone else arguing this point. It's solely an american thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by julide View Post
    Classical music is white framed but only according to americans. I don't really see anyone else arguing this point. It's solely an american thing.
    I very much think you are correct.

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    Quote Originally Posted by julide View Post
    Classical music is white framed but only according to americans. I don't really see anyone else arguing this point. It's solely an american thing.
    That's totally false, especially in the case of the Brits. My sister married one, and he had all sorts of nicknames for Indians. The Beatles, too; the Escher demo "What's the New Mary Jane" is full of it.

    Maybe AB could help us out: what are some British slang terms that are racist?

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    Senior Member annaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millionrainbows View Post
    That's totally false, especially in the case of the Brits. My sister married one, and he had all sorts of nicknames for Indians. The Beatles, too; the Escher demo "What's the New Mary Jane" is full of it.

    Maybe AB could help us out: what are some British slang terms that are racist?
    What does this have to do with classical music?

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    Senior Member SanAntone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by julide View Post
    Classical music is white framed but only according to americans. I don't really see anyone else arguing this point. It's solely an american thing.
    This is the third post I've seen of yours in which you disparage Americans, without explaining yourself. I get the feeling you don't like the USA and its people and culture, but you just drive by with these little insults and then disappear.

    A little strange.

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    Member julide's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SanAntone View Post
    This is the third post I've seen of yours in which you disparage Americans, without explaining yourself. I get the feeling you don't like the USA and its people and culture, but you just drive by with these little insults and then disappear.

    A little strange.
    Americans think their racial disparity and tension is a universal experience and amplify their cultural wars for all to hear and drown out other voices. No one outside of america needs to hear about your problems.

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    Quote Originally Posted by julide View Post
    Americans think their racial disparity and tension is a universal experience and amplify their cultural wars for all to hear and drown out other voices. No one outside of america needs to hear about your problems.
    I think that's incorrect, especially when we consider the white framing of an area as large and universal as music theory. Besides, my argument has always been that European classical music by white males now needs reexamination. That this is only an American problem is a conceit.

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    Senior Member SanAntone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by julide View Post
    Americans think their racial disparity and tension is a universal experience and amplify their cultural wars for all to hear and drown out other voices. No one outside of america needs to hear about your problems.
    Are you under the impression that racial problems only exist in the United States? Because it was European colonialism that produced the slave trade and racial and class problems in every country they touched (and by touched I mean invaded and exploited for its resources, subjugating the indigenous populations and then finally being thrown out leaving behind the mess they made). Brazil, the West Indies, South Africa, India, just to name a few.

    Maybe you're from a planet other than Earth, but there are no innocent countries here.
    Last edited by SanAntone; Nov-26-2020 at 15:16.

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    Senior Member annaw's Avatar
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    The US and Europe are extremely different, both have their culture, their history, and their problems. We should leave it at that. Neither should also be considered as just some homogenous groups of people.

    Why I've pointed out the America-cenitricity of MR's argument is that Neely's video, where the argument partly originates from, seems to talk about the problems in American music education, not European or Asian. Thus it's not necessarily logical to consider it a very widespread problem when there's no proof of that.

    Most European countries have their own classical music history and those of the bigger European countries have also been competing with each other - French vs German in the 19th and the 20th century is probably the best example. Assuming some inherent German supremacy in European universities would just be a bit out of place considering the history of Europe and European classical music. Do you think that the French or British would talk about German superiority in their music theory classes? I have no experience but I doubt!

    I'm sure both American and European universities have their problems but they aren't necessarily the same ones.
    Last edited by annaw; Nov-26-2020 at 15:23.

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    Quote Originally Posted by annaw View Post
    Do you think that the French or British would talk about German superiority in their music theory classes? I have no experience but I doubt!
    Of course they wouldn't, since this is unspoken and part of an invisivle ideological infrastructure. It retains its power by remaining unspoken.

    Most European countries have their own classical music history and those of the bigger European countries have also been competing with each other - French vs German in the 19th and the 20th century is probably the best example. Assuming some inherent German supremacy in European universities would just be a bit out of place considering the history of Europe and European classical music.
    So they don't recognize "the three Bs?"

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    Member julide's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SanAntone View Post
    Are you under the impression that racial problems only exist in the United States? Because it was European colonialism that produced the slave trade and racial and class problems in every country they touched (and by touched I mean invaded and exploited for its resources, subjugating the indigenous populations and then finally being thrown out leaving behind the mess they made). Brazil, the West Indies, South Africa, India, just to name a few.

    Maybe you're from a planet other than Earth, but there are no innocent countries here.
    Not at all racial and cultural hegemonies exist everywhere but not necessarily in the very american framework of whiteness and blackness... Hence your critique and your expose of classical music must not be touted as this universal and "inherent" truth. Like i said amplifying such american centered opinions as universal truths drowns other voices with different relations to this music. It's such an unnecessary critique of this already irrelevant and dying music. It's very telling that you both cannot stand contention of what you perceive to be the fact of this music's hegemonical whiteness. It is what you attribute to this abstract and democratic music that speaks to everyone regardless of race and language.

  17. #613
    Senior Member annaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by millionrainbows View Post
    Of course they wouldn't, since this is unspoken and part of an invisivle ideological infrastructure. It retains its power by remaining unspoken.
    I think AB or some other Brit would certainly be able to answer whether, deep in their hearts, Britons know that Germans are actually superior, although they don't say it out loud.

    I think you should come to Europe and encounter some stereotypes Europeans have about each other - you'd understand rather quickly what I mean.

    So they don't recognize "the three Bs?"
    I guess they do but I think that Austrians would point out both that Mozart was an Austrian and that Beethoven wanted to be an Austrian, or something along the lines. Being half Finnish, I talked with a Swedish friends about Sibelius - he said that we should consider Sibelius to be a Swedish composer for some biographical reasons (). I'm sure you'd encounter rather many Britons who prefer Handel to Händel and argue that he should be considered British not German (I'm not saying that he shouldn't). These are perfect examples of the cultural competition Europeans tend to engage in.

    And in my music history classes I don't even recall hearing anything about "the three Bs". No, no, we talked about the First Viennese School. In Estonian the three Bs are substituted with "the Viennese Classicists" - Mozart, Beethoven, Haydn. Yes, Viennese, not German.

    Anyways, my point is that you cannot make your claim just based on Neely's video as thet particular video is about how music theory is taught in the US. Whether such "problems" occur elsewhere is an entirely different matter.
    Last edited by annaw; Nov-26-2020 at 16:18.

  18. #614
    Senior Member SanAntone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by julide View Post
    Not at all racial and cultural hegemonies exist everywhere but not necessarily in the very american framework of whiteness and blackness... Hence your critique and your expose of classical music must not be touted as this universal and "inherent" truth. Like i said amplifying such american centered opinions as universal truths drowns other voices with different relations to this music. It's such an unnecessary critique of this already irrelevant and dying music. It's very telling that you both cannot stand contention of what you perceive to be the fact of this music's hegemonical whiteness. It is what you attribute to this abstract and democratic music that speaks to everyone regardless of race and language.
    I have made no "critique and expose of classical music" - especially concerning its "whiteness and blackness." I have rejected the premise of the video linked in the OP and think the whole idea of that aspect of this thread to be hogwash, which I have expressed in this thread more than once.

    So I don't know what your gripe is with music from the US and Americans, but your accusations concerning me are way off the mark.

  19. #615
    Member julide's Avatar
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    By that logic i will argue that classical music is hegemonically heterosexual because it's not enticing me to partake in homosexual activities.

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