Page 43 of 43 FirstFirst ... 333940414243
Results 631 to 644 of 644

Thread: Did you know that "Classical Music is Inherently Racist?"

  1. #631
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2020
    Location
    United States of America
    Posts
    533
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by millionrainbows View Post

    [Classical music] excludes other cultures. It's also male-oriented.

    [Cultural superiority] does affect the way music theory is taught.

    The rest of it? I'm not sure. I think a black man driving around in a car listening to Mozart at 2 AM Saturday night is less likely to be pulled over by police than if he were listening to rap. That's only my theory, though.
    The fact that the vast majority of "great composers" are dead white men is a product of the time and place where it first flourished for, say, the first 1,000 years from the time of Gregorian Chant through the Early Modern period. While the programming of American classical music has leaned in the direction of our own "Dead White Men", the list of very fine African-American composers is quite impressive: Scott Joplin, William Grant Still, Ulysses Kay, William Dawson, and Adolphus Hailstork. Likewise, American woman composers: Amy Beach, Ellen Taffe Zwillich, Joan Tower, Jennifer Higdon, not to mention the wonderful Florence Price who was Black and female.

    So I do agree with you in the sense that concert halls, music companies, music education should do more to tap into the wealth of the contributions made by Black and/or female composers, and current trends seem to moving in that direction where such composers are becoming regarded as "Great American Composers" and not just as the sidebar: "America's Black Composers" or "America's Women Composers".

    Certainly, no one could argue that American classical music has not been inclusive of the LGBT community to the point where it's barely worth mentioning that if you subtract gay men such as Aaron Copland, Samuel Barber, Virgil Thomson, Leonard Bernstein, Ned Rorem, David Diamond, Henry Cowell, John Cage, Lou Harrison, Harry Partch, and John Corigliano (and they're just the ones that we know were gay because they were "out"), it takes the heart and soul away from the standard American classical music repertoire.
    Last edited by Coach G; Nov-27-2020 at 20:26.

  2. Likes fluteman, Woodduck liked this post
  3. #632
    Senior Member fluteman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Posts
    1,879
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SanAntone View Post
    While I agree with most of your post, I don't think John Cage was interested in "attacking" anything, especially not music, Mozart or otherwise. Maybe his concept of a composer offered an alternative to the hero/genius Romantic idea of a composer, which might be something fans of classical music don't want to have undermined.

    This, "we should all be a little less smug about the superiority of European music of the 18th and 19th centuries" - wise words.
    Exactly. I should have put "attacks" in quotes. I meant it ironically. Edit: Though, I'm not unsympathetic to the hero/genius Romantic idea of composers of the 19th century (and some of the 20th, too). That mythical sense of self helped them create great music, even if, in the harsh light of a later, more dispassionate reader, the words of Wagner, and even of Beethoven and other "big" Romantic names, seem like so much pompous claptrap. To those who have no patience or sympathy for all of that, it's probably better to "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain" and just listen to the music.
    Last edited by fluteman; Nov-27-2020 at 22:14.

  4. Likes BachIsBest liked this post
  5. #633
    Senior Member AbsolutelyBaching's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2020
    Location
    Nottingham, UK
    Posts
    1,418
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SanAntone View Post
    This, "we should all be a little less smug about the superiority of European music of the 18th and 19th centuries" - wise words.
    I don't equate appreciating art with being smug about it. I sit in awe of the cultural wealth bestowed on us all by the Europeans of the 18th and 19th Centuries. If you cannot contemplate that without feeling 'smug', well... that's your problem and no-one else's.

    God knows there is a lot for Europeans of many centuries to be apoplectic and apologetic about. Those from the 20th Century especially, probably. But music, art and culture aren't in the list.

    So no. Those aren't "wise words". They are knee-jerk Social Justice Warrior-ing, I feel.

    I don't feel bad about Fluteman attempting to interpret John Cage in those terms. I feel bad about you appropriating his interpretation and praising it to the skies as if it meant anything.

  6. Likes Woodduck, WildThing, Byron and 8 others liked this post
  7. #634
    Senior Member Woodduck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Ashland, OR
    Posts
    16,681
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AbsolutelyBaching View Post
    I don't equate appreciating art with being smug about it. I sit in awe of the cultural wealth bestowed on us all by the Europeans of the 18th and 19th Centuries. If you cannot contemplate that without feeling 'smug', well... that's your problem and no-one else's.

    God knows there is a lot for Europeans of many centuries to be apoplectic and apologetic about. Those from the 20th Century especially, probably. But music, art and culture aren't in the list.
    My view exactly.

  8. Likes WildThing liked this post
  9. #635
    Senior Member Woodduck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Ashland, OR
    Posts
    16,681
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by fluteman View Post
    Exactly. I should have put "attacks" in quotes. I meant it ironically. Edit: Though, I'm not unsympathetic to the hero/genius Romantic idea of composers of the 19th century (and some of the 20th, too). That mythical sense of self helped them create great music, even if, in the harsh light of a later, more dispassionate reader, the words of Wagner, and even of Beethoven and other "big" Romantic names, seem like so much pompous claptrap. To those who have no patience or sympathy for all of that, it's probably better to "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain" and just listen to the music.
    I doubt that the "Romantic hero" idea now has much currency or power over people's musical perceptions in a post-postmodern age. Denouncing it feels like criticizing whalebone corsets. But that may actually make the statements of composers more interesting than they were when (some) people regarded them as utterances of semi-divine beings. A great many of Wagner's writings (since you mention him), including his long and wide-ranging correspondence with other musical figures such as Liszt, are quite interesting and insightful. He may have been prejudiced in favor of his own artistic goals, but he wasn't stupid, and he did know a thing or two about music. I'm inclined to say the same about less talkative artists. We don't need to know what they said to appreciate their music, but many of them were exceptionally interesting, even in their prejudices. I don't agree with everything Tchaikovsky said about Brahms, but his remarks have given me food for thought.

  10. Likes Byron, ManateeFL, fluteman and 1 others liked this post
  11. #636
    Senior Member fluteman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Posts
    1,879
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AbsolutelyBaching View Post
    I don't equate appreciating art with being smug about it. I sit in awe of the cultural wealth bestowed on us all by the Europeans of the 18th and 19th Centuries. If you cannot contemplate that without feeling 'smug', well... that's your problem and no-one else's.

    God knows there is a lot for Europeans of many centuries to be apoplectic and apologetic about. Those from the 20th Century especially, probably. But music, art and culture aren't in the list.

    So no. Those aren't "wise words". They are knee-jerk Social Justice Warrior-ing, I feel.

    I don't feel bad about Fluteman attempting to interpret John Cage in those terms. I feel bad about you appropriating his interpretation and praising it to the skies as if it meant anything.
    I truly do not understand all the friction at TC caused by John Cage. I'm no expert, but I have certainly listened to his music, read his prose, read and heard his interviews, seen his act on video, etc. Leaving aside a lot of his earlier work, such as the music for prepared piano and the string quartet in four parts, which is a favorite of mine, he did a lot of things better viewed as conceptual art than as classical music, often in a provocative way so as to challenge our basic assumptions about music, especially how we address the question, "What is music?" His answer seems to be that it is less important precisely how one answers the question than it is to keep an open mind and ear and be willing to consider a wide range of ideas. So for me, the conceptual art of John Cage has its role, no need to praise him to the skies for it, or to ridicule or bash him.
    As for Mozart and Beethoven, I can play and even sing large sections of their symphonies and concertos from memory. If Cage's goal was to tear down the mighty edifice of 18th and 19th century European music, he failed as far as I'm concerned. But that was not his goal. And from his interviews it's pretty clear he was a person of humility and integrity. And it's pretty easy to respect the Western classical music tradition without insisting everything else is less worthwhile.

  12. Likes SanAntone, Andrew Kenneth liked this post
  13. #637
    Senior Member SanAntone's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2020
    Location
    Tennessee
    Posts
    3,187
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by fluteman View Post
    Exactly. I should have put "attacks" in quotes. I meant it ironically. Edit: Though, I'm not unsympathetic to the hero/genius Romantic idea of composers of the 19th century (and some of the 20th, too). That mythical sense of self helped them create great music, even if, in the harsh light of a later, more dispassionate reader, the words of Wagner, and even of Beethoven and other "big" Romantic names, seem like so much pompous claptrap. To those who have no patience or sympathy for all of that, it's probably better to "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain" and just listen to the music.
    This is my usual approach when listening to any music, or viewing art; i.e. preferring no information outside the four corners of the work.

  14. Likes fluteman liked this post
  15. #638
    Senior Member JAS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    2,832
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by fluteman View Post
    I truly do not understand all the friction at TC caused by John Cage. I'm no expert, but I have certainly listened to his music, read his prose, read and heard his interviews, seen his act on video, etc. Leaving aside a lot of his earlier work, such as the music for prepared piano and the string quartet in four parts, which is a favorite of mine, he did a lot of things better viewed as conceptual art than as classical music, often in a provocative way so as to challenge our basic assumptions about music, especially how we address the question, "What is music?" . . .
    I don't think anyone is mocking him for asking the question. The mocking comes in because his attempt at an answer was to take the lazy way out and just say "everything," even when his own offerings so often fall far short of the mark. It all just demeans the very idea of art as any kind of elevated experience, and it stands in stark contrast to my own experience appreciating art.
    Last edited by JAS; Nov-27-2020 at 23:38.

  16. Likes ManateeFL, Woodduck, Isaac Blackburn liked this post
  17. #639
    Senior Member JAS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    2,832
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AbsolutelyBaching View Post
    I don't equate appreciating art with being smug about it. I sit in awe of the cultural wealth bestowed on us all by the Europeans of the 18th and 19th Centuries. If you cannot contemplate that without feeling 'smug', well... that's your problem and no-one else's. . . .
    Yes. I am not smug about it because I cannot make any claim to have created any of it. I am just grateful that I am among those who get to appreciate it.

  18. #640
    Senior Member fluteman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Posts
    1,879
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Woodduck View Post
    I doubt that the "Romantic hero" idea now has much currency or power over people's musical perceptions in a post-postmodern age. Denouncing it feels like criticizing whalebone corsets. But that may actually make the statements of composers more interesting than they were when (some) people regarded them as utterances of semi-divine beings. A great many of Wagner's writings (since you mention him), including his long and wide-ranging correspondence with other musical figures such as Liszt, are quite interesting and insightful. He may have been prejudiced in favor of his own artistic goals, but he wasn't stupid, and he did know a thing or two about music. I'm inclined to say the same about less talkative artists. We don't need to know what they said to appreciate their music, but many of them were exceptionally interesting, even in their prejudices. I don't agree with everything Tchaikovsky said about Brahms, but his remarks have given me food for thought.
    All very true. And as musical historians long after the fact, we aren't in the best position to appreciate all the obstacles these composers had to overcome to work on their highest level. All the insults and humiliations which may seem petty or irrelevant now, the bad reviews, the unenthusiastic audiences, the financial problems, the personal problems, and the pressure to succeed, all of which seem like footnotes or peripheral details to us now, were very real to them. And by "them", I very much include Mozart, Beethoven, Wagner and Tchaikovsky, all of whom had major problems in one or more of these areas.

    Thus, in the words these men wrote, often in intimate letters to close friends and confidants, or reflecting business transactions and money issues, one sees things said in resentment, frustration, fear, anger, and despair. Though their high level of intelligence is usually apparent from their prose, it's also likely that they would rather be remembered for their music, and not these words. These were real people who led real, imperfect lives, but the artist and his art are separate things.

  19. Likes Woodduck, Andrew Kenneth, SanAntone and 4 others liked this post
  20. #641
    Senior Member fluteman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Posts
    1,879
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JAS View Post
    I don't think anyone is mocking him for asking the question. The mocking comes in because his attempt at an answer was to take the lazy way out and just say "everything," even when his own offerings so often fall far short of the mark. It all just demeans the very idea of art as any kind of elevated experience, and it stands in stark contrast to my own experience appreciating art.
    I think it's safe to conclude from your comment that conceptual art is not your fur-covered cup of tea, and that's fine. But taking the lazy way out or demeaning the very idea of art is not what the conceptual artists had in mind. Much of their work was painstaking and labor-intensive to an almost absurd degree. And a lot of it, from René Magritte's men in bowler hats to Andy Warhol's soup cans, is impossible to forget, so great is its impact. If it were so easy to create cultural icons like those, why haven't you or I done it? I guess it's because you don't like conceptual art, and I've been busy. ;-)

  21. #642
    Senior Member Woodduck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Ashland, OR
    Posts
    16,681
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by fluteman View Post
    I think it's safe to conclude from your comment that conceptual art is not your fur-covered cup of tea, and that's fine. But taking the lazy way out or demeaning the very idea of art is not what the conceptual artists had in mind. Much of their work was painstaking and labor-intensive to an almost absurd degree. And a lot of it, from René Magritte's men in bowler hats to Andy Warhol's soup cans, is impossible to forget, so great is its impact. If it were so easy to create cultural icons like those, why haven't you or I done it? I guess it's because you don't like conceptual art, and I've been busy. ;-)
    Damn! Why did you force me to remember Andy Warhol's unforgettable soup cans?

  22. Likes fluteman liked this post
  23. #643
    Senior Member Dimace's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2018
    Location
    Berlin - Deutschland
    Posts
    2,314
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AbsolutelyBaching View Post
    I don't equate appreciating art with being smug about it. I sit in awe of the cultural wealth bestowed on us all by the Europeans of the 18th and 19th Centuries. If you cannot contemplate that without feeling 'smug', well... that's your problem and no-one else's.

    God knows there is a lot for Europeans of many centuries to be apoplectic and apologetic about. Those from the 20th Century especially, probably. But music, art and culture aren't in the list.

    So no. Those aren't "wise words". They are knee-jerk Social Justice Warrior-ing, I feel.

    I don't feel bad about Fluteman attempting to interpret John Cage in those terms. I feel bad about you appropriating his interpretation and praising it to the skies as if it meant anything.


    The like goes for the comment for this very specific sick situation everyone of us has lived minimum one time in his life and has nothing to do with this (very good) conversation, members and (also) the named composer.
    „Es gibt drei Arten von Pianisten: jüdische Pianisten, homosexuelle Pianisten -- und schlechte Pianisten.“ V. Horowitz

  24. #644
    Senior Member starthrower's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Syracuse, NY USA
    Posts
    12,668
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by millionrainbows View Post
    I think a black man driving around in a car listening to Mozart at 2 AM Saturday night is less likely to be pulled over by police than if he were listening to rap. That's only my theory, though.
    I would guess the value and status of the vehicle or the driving habits would be a more significant factor in pulling over a black driver. Somebody should have told Miles to blast some Mozart while he was cruising in his Lamborghini.
    “Music makes you feel feelings. Words make you think thoughts. But a song can make you feel a thought.”

    - Yip Harburg

Page 43 of 43 FirstFirst ... 333940414243

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •