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Did you know that "Classical Music is Inherently Racist?"

83K views 690 replies 66 participants last post by  Dan Ante 
#1 ·
I came across this gem in my google feed last night:

https://nmbx.newmusicusa.org/its-time-to-let-classical-music-die/

"Western classical music is not about culture. It's about whiteness. It's a combination of European traditions which serve the specious belief that whiteness has a culture-one that is superior to all others. Its main purpose is to be a cultural anchor for the myth of white supremacy. In that regard, people of color can never truly be pioneers of Western classical music. The best we can be are exotic guests: entertainment for the white audiences and an example of how Western classical music is more elite than the cultures of people of color."
:rolleyes:
 
#250 · (Edited)
I agree with this video, and I think all of Adam Neely's points are valid and logical.

Overheard in a classical music theory forum: "I'm not a racist; I just think that 18th-era white European music and theory are superior to other kinds of music theory."

 
#251 ·
I'd be satified if classical music is recognized openly for what it is: music by white males of the 18th century. It never was inclusive, because that's what it was.

This forum probably is not the best place to discuss this issue, either, because I suspect that the majority of members here are drawn to classical music for precisely those characteristics, which reinforces their lifestyle and identity.

If the definition of classical music is not recognized or spoken of as "music by white males of the 18th century," then this becomes a form of color blind racism. It's imperative that we recognize CM as "white" music made by white men.
 
#253 ·
The idea that western classical music is inherently racist is the sort of thing propagated by certain sort of pseudo intellectuals who have to justify their existence by crackpot theories. These are the sort of people who say that anything produced by white people is inherently racist. Of course those of us who think beyond our noses know that to be racist one has to look down on other races and western classical music doesn’t in general do that although a few specific examples might. So whereas one might point to a few examples of possible racism they are specific and quite rare. One might of course just as well say that all western art done by white people is inherently racist certainly because it is done by white people and that the Rembrandt painting is inherently racist because Rembrandt was white. But it would be just as crackpot to say that jazz is inherently racist as it came out of a largely black culture. Or Indian music is racist because it came out of an Indian culture . It has never occurred to me on my visit to India when listening to Indian music then I’m listening to racist music but rather music of a different race . I’m afraid these theories actually encourage racism and I have the feeling that those who propagate them have a problem themselves.
 
#275 ·
It has never occurred to me on my visit to India when listening to Indian music then I'm listening to racist music but rather music of a different race.
Actually, Indians, many of whom have relatively fair skin, are regarded as Caucasian under the racial categories of traditional anthropology: Caucasian, *******, ********* and Australoid. From the start, the boundaries between these 'racial' categories, based on bone structure as well as skin color, have been acknowledged to be arbitrary. How ridiculous it is, then, to tie a purely cultural phenomenon like music to 'race' in this sense. Composers Joseph Bologne and William Grant Still, and George Bridgetower, the Polish violin virtuoso who inspired Beethoven to write the Kreutzer sonata, were all purely Western classical musicians. The fact that Western societies were very racist and sexist until the mid-20th century, and significant inequities persist today, doesn't automatically require applying the 'racist' label to all Western music.
 
#255 · (Edited)
Just because we recognize the "white" in classical music does't make it "racist."

I disagree with the OP question which implies that "classical music is racist," as well as disagreements with the article it references. If classical music is used to serve the specious belief that whiteness is a culture that is superior to all others, then this ideological notion is flawed.

If classical music is implemented ideologically to be a cultural anchor for the myth of white supremacy, then, yes, it is racist.

This use of racist ideology is most apparent in music theory, from theorists like Heinrich Schenker, who openly touted the superiority of classical music. Music critic Theodore Adorno held some racist views.

Also, it should be noted that Western music theory is structurally biased and exclusive. By its exclusions and focusses, and terminology, it favors musical practices by white males of the 18th century, and excludes "jazz" ways of doing things. I've experienced this bias myself in college music theory classes.

A true "music theory" would be inclusive and applicable to any form of music, including jazz.

If we continue to use "music theory" as it is presented in textbooks, then we need to call it something else, such as "Musical Practices of the 18th Century" or something else, and stop pretending that it is objective and "all inclusive" like mathematics. It should be, but as it stands, it is not.

The arguments we've seen on the music theory threads demonstrate this; the traditional theorists here are unwilling to see connections between certain theoretical devices which are also used in jazz. They refuse to relinquish or relax the specialist nature of Western theory, and reject any questioning of its basic tenets and axiomatic ideas.

Nowadays, after listening to John Coltrane and Stevie Wonder, I'll decide to listen to some "white" music and put on some Mozart.

I don't feel uncomfortable with that distinction, and in fact, it gives me a certain satisfaction which I'm sure other white members experience too.

BTW, I've made reference to The Quadrivium many times, long before the video, in explaining serial music based on number systems. Woodduck should remember that, unless his memory is failing. For proof, just go up to the search window on the right and enter "Quadrivium." When the result appears, scroll down a bit and notice how many of the threads were started by me, millionrainbows, long ago.
 
#257 · (Edited)
That might be true, but it doesn't apply to me and my interactions here. I've said that some people here might be "color blind," which is different.

Do you feel uncomfortable discussing race? I think it's an issue we all need to confront. Because if we ignore it, or refuse to acknowledge the issue of race, then we are being "color blind," which is a kind of "passive racism."

We need to recognize our "whiteness" and how that impacts other groups.

If we refuse to acknowledge and engage this issue, then this is a way of reinforcing and protecting the power of the dominant group.
 
#267 ·
There are many ways to enjoy Mozart's music, but until now I didn't realise that "white" was one of them.
Then you are "color blind."
 
#270 ·
Okay, if you'll quit playing being the victim of "reverse racism."
 
#274 ·
This is hilarious. Everything is unstated and hidden. So how do these wiseacres know it exists? The total theatre of the absurd!
Know what exists?
 
#279 ·
Mozart is not the embodiment of whiteness. That's just you attributing 21th century ideas of critical race theory to mozart's music. I might as well call it all christian trash since it all goes back to church music. But that doesn't in anyway deter me from enjoying it as a muslim. I don't understand what is actually demanded by these people. Asking for validation and accusing music from several centuries back is just childish.
 
#281 · (Edited)
CM was created back when it was the supreme power, and democracy was not the big power. But it does matter now, because everybody has access to it. Western music theory in particulat needs reform.
 
#290 ·
I don't understand how mozart comes to stand in for whiteness and elitism. Have you paid attention to his operas. It's about exposing a rapist. Thwarting your landlords's power and exchanging boyfriends with your sister. How is that supposed to be elitist. It's literally marxism.
 
#295 · (Edited)
As has been repeatedly said, this attitude of cultural superiority and white supremacy did not emerge explicitly until the 19th and 20th century. Back then, it was invisible, because it was unchallenged by cultural diversity.

White framing is still unspoken and guarded, to preserve its power.
 
#291 · (Edited)
I don't know that racism is a problem that we can really "solve" in any absolute sense. It is a problem that we must recognize and wrestle with in a personal way in our own daily lives. And, to some extent, we can encourage public representatives and broader policies that tend toward or away from institutionalized racism, and should, in my opinion, attempt the latter and avoid the former. Racism isn't limited to whites, although since white males still tend to hold most of the reins of power in the US, our racism is a larger problem. With all of this admitted, I do not see any plausible argument that enjoying listening to the music of Mozart is somehow inherently racist, even if he did happen to be an 18th century white male of European descent.
 
#296 ·
I don't know that racism is a problem that we can really "solve" in any absolute sense. It is a problem that we must recognize and wrestle with in a personal way in our own daily lives. And, to some extent, we can encourage public representatives and broader policies that tend toward or away from institutionalized racism, and should, in my opinion, attempt the latter and avoid the former. Racism isn't limited to whites, although since white males still tend to hold most of the reins of power in the US, our racism is a larger problem.
Hear, hear, I salute you.

With all of this admitted, I do not see any plausible argument that enjoying listening to the music of Mozart is somehow inherently racist, even if he did happen to be an 18th century white male of European descent.
No, it's not inherently racist to listen to Mozart. You should be aware, however, that this music was created in an exclusively white framework, and the growing attitude of cultural superiority it represents to many people, which must now be acknowledged.
 
#298 ·
From what I've gathered about you as a person, Flamme, these short, pithy comments of yours do not bother me in the least. And I'm doing you a favor by responding to it.
 
#305 ·
Bro I heard there is a hit on your head by these dudes...The Nordic aliens...Keep your eyes on the skies these days...
More "heavy metal" humor from Flamme. Right on, bro! Shreddin'!
 
#307 ·
Imho...This beahaviour coupled with a bit of paranoia and seeing white racists behind every blade of grass actually breeds actual racists...For all my years here and its not only few I vaguely remember seeing one or two comments that were borderline racist against ''poc'' and they were promptly deleted and in one case the perp was banned...This is just ridiculous:cool:
 
#308 ·
As I said the worry is to me that there are universities which are spreading this rubbish like how somehow foraging for mushrooms is a cause of right wing populism in Europe. While no-one here with any sense takes our dear horned friend seriously, there are gullible young people out there being fed this sort of piffle. There is some other lunatic out there who reckons that colonialism and racism were responsible for the gender constructs ‘men and women’. Yes and this third rater is teaching at a university - being paid to communicate this drivel. At least mr is doing it for fun and our amusement. But these guys are insisting students take them seriously.
 
#309 · (Edited)
As I said the worry is to me that there are universities which are spreading this rubbish like how somehow foraging for mushrooms is a cause of right wing populism in Europe. While no-one here with any sense takes our dear horned friend seriously, there are gullible young people out there being fed this sort of piffle. There is some other lunatic out there who reckons that colonialism and racism were responsible for the gender constructs 'men and women'. Yes and this third rater is teaching at a university - being paid to communicate this drivel. At least mr is doing it for fun and our amusement. But these guys are insisting students take them seriously.
I actually don't mind people asking us to view things from a different perspective from time to time. It can be eye-opening. It can be thought-provoking. It can possibly be of benefit to all concerned. If that's what's being taught at University -don't accept 'male and female as givens; ask what the words mean or imply'- I think that's fine.

What I object to, and find neither funny nor amusing, is someone telling us to view things from a different perspective because our perspective is wrong. And that if we don't follow the instruction, we're clearly bad people in one way or another -or 'ignorant sheep', mindlessly following the crowd (or the BBC or CNN or the NYT!)

I mean, some of us might be married to Indians, or have children who are engaged to Nigerians, or even have a conviction for going on a slightly-too-boisterous Black Lives Matter protest. MR doesn't know any of that about anyone, yet he lectures from on-high, from a position of abject ignorance. It needs to stop.
 
#314 ·
I think that another step will be pronouncing the skin colour/a race a ''thing of a moment'' or ''inspiration'' so the first part of construction falls through as well...Their devices, in a long run, work against them...:cool:
 
#318 ·
Back at the space bros...Who would thunk even outer visitors would have the nerve to be goldylocks, snowhites...How dare you??? I notice they stopped appearing to earthlings after ''human righs'' movements got into full swing! https://daily.jstor.org/our-space-brothers-might-not-actually-look-like-little-green-men-after-all/
https://www.amazon.com/Here-Help-UFOs-Space-Brothers/dp/9081549537
But even the dreaded ''greys'' look more asian than black so we need to hold them accountable to produce some black and brown, muslimistic aliens, because, diversity...:wave::wave::wave:
 
#344 ·
I once heard a clip created from editing dog barks into the tune "Jingle Bells", or some such song. Is it noise or music?

Can someone make music by hitting a cardboard box, or a metal trash can?

To me sound is a continuum that includes the chromatic scale. Using any object to produce a sound you can create music.

It is incredibly limiting to think of music as only what has been written using conventional instruments.
 
#345 · (Edited)
I once heard a clip created from editing dog barks into the tune "Jingle Bells", or some such song. Is it noise or music?
Most likely it would be noise to me. I find it hard to imagine how it might be done in such a way that it could still be recognizable as dog barks and music.

Can someone make music by hitting a cardboard box, or a metal trash can?
It seems to me highly unlikely that either, without some kind of remarkable re-engineering, would produce what I would consider to be musical sounds. The dull thud of a cardboard box might be unobtrusive in the midst of a larger work.

To me sound is a continuum that includes the chromatic scale. Using any object to produce a sound you can create music.
On this point, we disagree.

It is incredibly limiting to think of music as only what has been written using conventional instruments.
Music is a limited form of sound. That is part of what makes it so valuable.
 
#376 ·
 
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