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Did you know that "Classical Music is Inherently Racist?"

83K views 690 replies 66 participants last post by  Dan Ante 
#1 ·
I came across this gem in my google feed last night:

https://nmbx.newmusicusa.org/its-time-to-let-classical-music-die/

"Western classical music is not about culture. It's about whiteness. It's a combination of European traditions which serve the specious belief that whiteness has a culture-one that is superior to all others. Its main purpose is to be a cultural anchor for the myth of white supremacy. In that regard, people of color can never truly be pioneers of Western classical music. The best we can be are exotic guests: entertainment for the white audiences and an example of how Western classical music is more elite than the cultures of people of color."
:rolleyes:
 
#377 · (Edited)
Of course when some (not all I might add - just people like mr) people listen to the music of John Cage they have to try and make people who don’t listen to it feel bad and so they invent the bogus claims about racism. So funny. Just listen to John cage if you want to. I have no problem. But don’t try and pretend there’s something wrong with those of us who don’t. It’s like my friend who likes jellied eels claiming that those of us who don’t have an anti-northern prejudice. I’ll actually tell him that next time I talk to him. Good for a laugh!
 
#378 ·
Of course when people listen to the music of John Cage they have to try and make people who don't listen to it feel bad and so they invent the bogus and fatuous claims about racism. So funny. Just listen to John cage if you want to. But don't inflict it on me.
I have made no comment about racism vis a vis John Cage. If you don't want to listen to John Cage, fine. Just don't inflict your bogus pronouncements about his music on me.
 
#383 · (Edited)


In other areas of fine arts there is a clear distinction in categorization between classical stuff and modern stuff:
classical literature vs. modern literature.
classical painting vs. modern painting.
But why not in music?

I don't know why modern music practitioners and their followers are so obsessed to get themselves into the same bandwagon as "classical music". If their music was not considered "classical music", would it diminish its value? Why not come up with a different name that sounds just as lofty then, such as "modern art music"?

I also don't buy into the argument that Williams and Kuramoto's music is "weak derivatives of classical music". I wouldn't say Kuramoto's Waltz is weaker than Chopin's weaker stuff, such as the posthumous A minor waltz or Mazurka Op.24 No.2, which are genuinely "classical music".

Let's not get ourselves into arguments 'which type of music is harder to "create"' (between Cage's and Kuramoto's).
So far, I haven't heard any convincing argument refuting against this either:


The highest voted comments in this video:
"No one will ever know if you make a mistake that's for sure."
"If you make a mistake on this sonata, it's called "improvisation""

Does anyone disagree? If so, can you explain?
 
#384 ·
. . . In other areas of fine arts there is a clear distinction in categorization between classical stuff and modern stuff:
classical literature vs. modern literature.
classical painting vs. modern painting.
But why not in music?

I don't know why modern music practitioners and their followers are so obsessed to get themselves into the same bandwagon as "classical music". If their music was not considered "classical music", would it diminish its value? Why not come up with a different name that sounds just as lofty then, such as "modern art music"? . . .
I suspect that they feel that they want/need the cover of established credibility. There may also be a hope that they can drag along the facilities and audience already established, as they presume, probably accurately, that they have not the resources to survive on their own.
 
#412 ·
A better thread title would have been "Did you know that classical music is inherently white supremacist?"
 
#420 · (Edited)
Much of this thread is semantic foolishness. Classical music is classical music. One can call it "racist" by expanding (beyond all reason, imo) the definition of racism, but this is just an act of labeling; at a deeper conceptual level nothing has been said.
I never said classical music is racist; that's what the OP article said. I only said it is "white."
 
#417 · (Edited)
that puckish mushroom picker who'd rather listen to traffic than to Beethoven.
I don't think Cage ever said he'd rather listen to traffic than Beethoven. What he has said is that after leaving an art exhibit of abstract paintings he found himself waiting to cross the street and was looking down at the pavement and was struck at the similarity between the paintings he'd just seen and the texture and design of the pavement. I too have had this sensation. It is really wonderful. Nothing to ridicule.

He might have gotten the idea that there is plenty of beautiful art around us, even the sound of traffic, if we opened our perception to it. If we stopped thinking that art only existed inside a museum or gallery with a title block.

To me that is a beautiful way to experience the world around us.

My identity cannot be threatened by cactus-tickling offered in the name of music
Are you talking about Child of Tree (1975) and Branches (1976)? Interesting works that have produced some really beautiful sounds. There have been times when I'd rather listen to them than Beethoven. I guess I should be ridiculed.
 
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#474 · (Edited)
Just because Western classical music has been almost exclusively written by white male composers does not mean that classical music fans are racists. (In the last 50 years more and more women composers have emerged, and it is at least 50-50 maybe even a majority of women these days, as well as becoming more and more multi-cultural.)

It is just a genre of music.

The issue for this forum, as I see it, is accepting what exactly IS classical music, i.e. where do we draw the line? Some on this forum do not wish to include much of the music written by 20/21C composers (trained in the classical tradition but) who compose music not based on the attributes that have defined classical music for centuries.

Others, like myself, see classical music as one long, wide, river with side streams and tributaries which create little ponds here and there of extraordinary musical expressions which broaden the idea of classical music, but do not threaten it.

I prefer to see "classical music" as inclusive.

However, just because no one is writing in the style of Beethoven anymore does not mean that the music of Beethoven is no longer current. The music of the greatest composers has a universal quality, they left us living, breathing, works of art that offer new possibilities of interpretation throughout the ages.
 
#475 · (Edited)
Just because Western classical music is almost exclusively written by white male composers does not mean that classical music fans are racists.
True; I never said they were overtly racist.

However, be aware that this is obscured by the fact that in dominant groups like whites, racism goes unacknowledged, unstated, and remains invisible. Believe me, the last thing a Black person in Amerikkka wants to hear is that "you are not racist" or that "racism is not a problem."

It is just a genre of music. The issue for this forum, as I see it, is accepting what exactly IS classical music, i.e. where do we draw the line? Some on this forum do not wish to include much of the music written by 20/21C composers (trained in the classical tradition but) who compose music not based on the attributes that have defined classical music for centuries. Others, like myself, see classical music all as one long wide river with side streams and tributaries which create little ponds here and there of extraordinary musical expressions which broaden the idea of classical music, but do not threaten it. I prefer to see "classical music" as inclusive.
If a listener is resistant to modern music, then they are preserving an old paradigm of 18th-19th century music. If they exhibit open, agressive hostility towards John Cage and modernism, this is a clear indicator of their deep investment in the 18th-19th century white male paradigm. If they simply ignore modernism, and say "live and let live," this is a better indicator that, to them, it's just music they don't like or identify with. Actions will tell us, not words.

However, just because no one is writing in the style of Beethoven anymore does not mean that the music of Beethoven is no longer current. The music of the greatest composers has a universal quality, they left us living, breathing, works of art that offer new possibilities of interpretation throughout the ages.
True, good art has a universal appeal, but there's only so far you can take that assertion. It sounds more like you are giving conservative, exclusive "old paradigm" listeners an excuse to reject modernism, and giving them your blessing.

Instead of being the apologist for these more conservative listeners, recognize them as the dominant group here at TC and go on about your modernist business.

What do you owe them, when they are launching a tirade and trying to exclude the music YOU like?
These listeners are never going to support the music you like, and would just as soon see all modern music erased from the forum, especially in the case of John Cage.

Are you saying that this kind of anti-social intolerance is okay with you?
 
#478 · (Edited)
I'm not sure what MR will make of these, lol:

http://www.lcsproductions.net/MusicHistory/MusHistRev/Articles/Neoclassicism.html
The music of the romantics had adhered to a melodic style based on the voice, but the neoclassicists favored an instrumental melody that made use of wider intervals and a more extended range. Harmonically, they moved away from the chromaticism of the post-Wagnerian style to pandiatonicism, based on the seven tones of the diatonic scale. In contrast to the multitude of sharps and flats in the early 20th century, it favored a sparing use of accidentals and showed an affinity for the key of C major. Many pages of neoclassic music were prime examples of the term "white music" coined during this period.

https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Wolfgang_Amadeus_Mozart
"If Germany, my beloved fatherland, of whom you know I am proud, will not accept me, then must I, in the name of God, again make France or England richer by one capable German; - and to the shame of the German nation."



---

Everyone, let's not be too harsh on MR. I find his posts and the ways he interprets facts very original and inventive every time. I don't think there has been a single post by him that didn't make me ROFL. I see him as some sort of an entertainer. (I almost get an urge to encourage him sometimes). I think people don't realize that it's because of MR the forum doesn't get overly serious/dull/dry/lifeless.

Row, row, row your boat, gently into obsolescence.
But Bach, Bach...Bach's music is a gift to us, of pure joy! Pure joy! and Love! :angel:
 
#553 ·
Charles Wourinen did not agree with this, and wanted to keep the distinction, because he considered his intention, and his music, as having a "higher art function" and intent than what we might hear on the radio produced for mass consumption.
Wuorinen is employing the usual strawman argument for classical music, i.e. comparing it to the worst of popular music. A more apt comparison but one which does not prove his point is that Wuorinen and classical music in general is not a "higher" musical expression than Robert Johnson's blues or Louis Armstrong's jazz or flamenco or the best of pop music.

SanAntone: However, for me, none of this matters very much. I like what I like unconcerned if my opinion is echoed by a majority of members on TC or not.

JAS: Apparently it does since you keep posting about it, over and over.
The majority of my posts are in response to someone, mostly you. Again you want to silence those who don't share your dismissive attitude of John Cage and new music.
 
#554 · (Edited)
. . . The majority of my posts are in response to someone, mostly you. Again you want to silence those who don't share your dismissive attitude of John Cage and new music.
Unlike you, I am not trying to silence (or censor) anyone. I am even usually happy to let you have that last word (particularly since you often make my case for me better than I do).
 
#574 · (Edited)
The US and Europe are extremely different, both have their culture, their history, and their problems. We should leave it at that. Neither should also be considered as just some homogenous groups of people.

Why I've pointed out the America-cenitricity of MR's argument is that Neely's video, where the argument partly originates from, seems to talk about the problems in American music education, not European or Asian. Thus it's not necessarily logical to consider it a very widespread problem when there's no proof of that.

Most European countries have their own classical music history and those of the bigger European countries have also been competing with each other - French vs German in the 19th and the 20th century is probably the best example. Assuming some inherent German supremacy in European universities would just be a bit out of place considering the history of Europe and European classical music. Do you think that the French or British would talk about German superiority in their music theory classes? I have no experience but I doubt!

I'm sure both American and European universities have their problems but they aren't necessarily the same ones.
 
#575 ·
Do you think that the French or British would talk about German superiority in their music theory classes? I have no experience but I doubt!
Of course they wouldn't, since this is unspoken and part of an invisivle ideological infrastructure. It retains its power by remaining unspoken.

Most European countries have their own classical music history and those of the bigger European countries have also been competing with each other - French vs German in the 19th and the 20th century is probably the best example. Assuming some inherent German supremacy in European universities would just be a bit out of place considering the history of Europe and European classical music.
So they don't recognize "the three Bs?"
 
#607 ·
fluteman said:
I think it's safe to conclude from your comment that conceptual art is not your fur-covered cup of tea, and that's fine. But taking the lazy way out or demeaning the very idea of art is not what the conceptual artists had in mind. Much of their work was painstaking and labor-intensive to an almost absurd degree. And a lot of it, from René Magritte's men in bowler hats to Andy Warhol's soup cans, is impossible to forget, so great is its impact. If it were so easy to create cultural icons like those, why haven't you or I done it? I guess it's because you don't like conceptual art, and I've been busy. ;-)
I think this is a really fair point, but I think we've gone too far in this direction. It's one thing to ask what the nature of art is and another thing to make art. The problem I have is when people say that because a work does the former it is the latter. It's also a bit tiring to be constantly told that I'm having my conception of art challenged: I spend quite a bit of time thinking and reading philosophically about art and actually viewing art in many different forms, and a lot of the that I'm told are challenging me are either old news or pretty shallow. Furthermore, conceptual art does not have a monopoly on this topic. Plenty of non-conceptual works of art have made me question or rethink the nature of art, from Chomei's Hojoki to Dante's Divine Comedy to Jacques Tati's Playtime. In my experience, the work of interpretation itself is the most interesting way to come to new insights about what art is. I think that a lot of conceptual pieces are more akin to creative psychology experiments than art (based on my thought out ideas of what art is, not naive preconceptions).
 
#608 ·
I love, love, love the work of Jacques Tati. Anyone who mentions him in a post, for any reason, much less as part of a thoughtful post like yours, gets a gold star from me. As for the rest of your post, I suppose I could respond, but I don't see why a response is needed. As you correctly say, conceptual art is far, very far, from the only medium in which to raise issues as to the nature of art, though there are reasons it came to the fore in the early to mid 20th century. My comments are only in response to the hostility and ridicule I read from many here who do not seem to understand its underlying contexts and motivations. Though of course, many others here do understand, at least as well as I do.
 
#629 · (Edited)
Beating Dead Horses Department:

https://www.osv.ltd.uk/how-reliable...ar are actually,the top of reliability charts.

"As we said, there was once a time when Jaguar was considered unreliable. And, this wasn't actually too long ago. In fact, in 2014, the UK was placed at the bottom of the reliability table in a WarrantyDirect survey partly due to the low-reliability score of Jaguar. This survey was compiled to show the best nations for reliability, and the UK came last out of eight nations.

Jaguar also placed 29th in comparison to the automotive industry in terms of reliability, click here to discover where their competitors placed.

This also appeared to be the case in the 2017 survey by WarrantyDirect, which found that British cars were some of the worst on the roads in terms of dependability. This again, was partly due to Jaguar's unreliability. That said, they also factored in Land Rover and Vauxhall in this survey, so it wasn't all to do with Jaguar. And we all know how unreliable Land Rover are, so there's a good chance that they brought down the overall reliability considerably."
 
#636 · (Edited)
I came across this gem in my google feed last night:

https://nmbx.newmusicusa.org/its-time-to-let-classical-music-die/

:rolleyes:
What nonsense! I find it amusing that "Anti-Racist" types are often incredibly racist most often to people of European descent "White" but increasingly towards the Japanese to. This is only going to create ill-will between groups of people. I fear that is the intent and that it is working.

I would hope this isn't necessary but I will add the disclaimer:

I do not approve of racist behaviour and have no bad feeling towards people asking for better treatment form society. However I've noticed "Anti" is a bit of a misnomer it is often used to mask people perpetuating the very thing they claim to be against.
 
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