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Did you know that "Classical Music is Inherently Racist?"

83K views 690 replies 66 participants last post by  Dan Ante 
#1 ·
I came across this gem in my google feed last night:

https://nmbx.newmusicusa.org/its-time-to-let-classical-music-die/

"Western classical music is not about culture. It's about whiteness. It's a combination of European traditions which serve the specious belief that whiteness has a culture-one that is superior to all others. Its main purpose is to be a cultural anchor for the myth of white supremacy. In that regard, people of color can never truly be pioneers of Western classical music. The best we can be are exotic guests: entertainment for the white audiences and an example of how Western classical music is more elite than the cultures of people of color."
:rolleyes:
 
#643 ·
Handellian, it is obvious that I have hurt your feelings, and that is sad as I have posted sources and links to illustrate a long-standing claim against Jaguar. Against that you have one--or is it two--bits of anecdote/personal testimony in refutation: powerful stuff indeed! Well, I have--as we recall--the anecdotal testimony of the Jaguar service manager that his dealership could make money on the cars if they gave them away. But, please, do post your sources asserting Jaguar quality to the present day--we all agree that it was a fine marque back in the Days of Hope and Glory. :cool:
 
#644 · (Edited)
You haven't hurt my feelings at all. Why should you? Why do people like you always project? You are just saying discredited information which is your privilege. Just I have had personal experience. You can shoot wide of the mark as often as you like. Makes no difference to me! I read Edward Lear at school! Just funny that's all! Believe what you like - what difference does it make? This thread is about racism btw.
 
#648 · (Edited)
Handelian, tell us more! Which cars did you own? Models, years? Share! Mind you, your input is the essence of anecdote, and you may have maintained your vehicles with great care, and there will always be outliers in any survey of anything, while the overall trend runs strongly in another direction. And try not to take this so personally. I am actually engaging! :angel:
 
#649 · (Edited)
I owned Vauxhalls Friends of mine had Jags - one has only just sold his because of an expanding family. Reckons it was the best car he had had and he is a petrolhead. Similarly friends with Range Rovers. No and I didn't maintain them with care as I hate anything to do with cars. Just changed the oil every year and plugs occasionally and they ran fine. I'm still working out what this has to do with race.
 
#650 ·
Thanks for the input but I think I'll stay on my side of the divide, such as it is. We began this segment when I recalled--as an anecdote--my black co-worker's tale of owning an E-type Jag and being often pulled over for Driving While Black and of his experiences with the "repair" syndrome. The discussion could have ended right there.
 
#654 · (Edited)
Yup, Ford did own Jaguar. My black co-worker had the 12-cylinder V engine in his E-type, if I recall correctly (it's been many decades). Never ran properly for any length of time.

Al, best of luck with your Jag, should you so chose! :tiphat:
Jaguar touted the V12 extensively in its ad campaigns back when I was a wide-eyed little kid using my allowance to buy the Corgi and Matchbox versions, which I believe I still own. Not much long-term collectors' value there, either. If only my parents had bought one of those Andy Warhol soup can paintings!
Edit: I don't know where my Jaguars are right now, but here's another expensive car to maintain - a Rolls Royce Phantom V. Queen Elizabeth had one, as did John Lennon, who, iirc, had his painted with colorful psychedelic designs. Perhaps he and Yoko Ono arrived at the Abbey Road studios in that when they created Revolution 9, a high point in the history of mid-century conceptual art music. Mine has had no mechanical issues and is economical to maintain. ;-) Wheel Car Tire Vehicle Motor vehicle

Wheel Tire Car Vehicle Land vehicle
 
#655 ·
I promise this is my last post concerning cars on this thread. This is the last Jag I owned XK 150 3.5L had absolutely no problems and had the straight 6 engine which was designed by Jaguar.

Wheel Vehicle Tire Car Plant
 
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#659 ·

This is concerning Classical Music
which I never listen to when driving because wind/road noise drowns all quiet passages. but when I pull over for a cup of coffee then I press the button.
 
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#657 · (Edited)
My final contribution to this part of the thread involves Walter "Walt" Hansgen, born in Westfield NJ where his father had a body shop and Walt later owned the Jaguar dealership. Walt drove Jaguars extensively, winning a number of SCCA races in them. I sometimes saw Hansgen race at Bridgehampton and Watkins Glen and my father had a small office in Westfield and sometimes spoke with Hansgen. He recalled Hansgen speaking of driving (rapidly) to Florida in one of his Jags, being observed by local police and on several occasions just putting pedal to the metal and outrunning them. Sadly, died after a test drive crash at Le Mans, in a Ford. Many Internet entries:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walt_Hansgen
 
#658 ·
He was quite the legend. But I learned early to stick with classical music and forget about muscle cars. In the 80s, I drove a rented Camaro from DC's airport down Route 29 In Virginia. Not only was it unstable and tended to fishtail with its front heavy, rear wheel drive design, I got escorted to each county line by a county police car, with a new cop smoothly taking over as soon as I entered each new county. I later drove a friend's 450SL coupe on the interstate, taking it up to 100. It was very smooth and quiet up to 80, but it began to roar and vibrate above that.
 
#667 ·
I though classical music is inherently against '''modern'' music and for that and that bias alone it should be forbidden and its works scattered in 4 winds...:mad::rolleyes:
 
#668 · (Edited)
That doesn't make sense. How is classical music biased against modernism? If there is bias, that would be due to listeners' attitudes, wouldn't it?

The origins and historical legacy of classical music are entrenched in its very existence, but these things existed before modernism had occurred.
 
#670 ·
Except that the bias wears out over time and posterity takes over or the lack of it, either way, it disproves the "racist" theory.
 
#672 · (Edited)


It's after the fact. Race was not relevant back then. Nothing "wore out," but now, in the prevailing social atmosphere, it becomes relevant.
Classical music is what it always was, only now we see it differently. It proves, not disproves.

This shows the importance of "subjectivity" on the part of the listener.

Aren't there people here who are arguing the importance of subjective reactions? They say "Music can be anything I want it to be. I don't have to know its social context." I'm sure they would agree.
 
#676 ·
I thought about the statement in the original post and maybe some part is right...In earlier times people didn't know any better than being racist and some still do, BUT classical music is still alive and no longer suffers from that (maybe I should say Western Art Music). That's what I hope anyway :) Did they even have the term "racism" back in history? Racism is a stupid thing and bums me out. We're all brothers and sisters!
 
#677 ·
I thought about the statement in the original post and maybe some part is right...In earlier times people didn't know any better than being racist and some still do, BUT classical music is still alive and no longer suffers from that (maybe I should say Western Art Music). That's what I hope anyway :) Did they even have the term "racism" back in history? Racism is a stupid thing and bums me out. We're all brothers and sisters!
Insofar as classical music is exclusively European, it does not include non-European music of Africa, India, Japan, etc.
"Music theory" as it is presently formed and taught is drawn from this paradigm.
This would be appropriate if it were called "music theory of the 18th-19th centuries created by (white) Europeans," but it's not; it considers and promotes itself to be the highest form of music and musical thinking.
 
#681 ·
Obviously CM is not inherently racist. Why else would the Chinese and Japanese for example, love it and manage to perform well? Trivial.
 
#682 ·
It is beautiful music, granted. But since you asked...European classical music of the 17th-18th century, created by European (white males), in itself represents an hierarchy of power which I am sure appeals to totalitarian governments such as the Chinese.

I should like to detail some of the aspects and implications of the paradigm of classical organisation - the orchestra. A traditional orchestra is a ranked pyramidal hierarchy of the same kind as the armies that existed contemporary to it. The hierarchy of rank is in this pattern: conductor, leader of the orchestra; section principals; section subprincipals; and, finally, rank-and-file members. Occasionally a soloist will join the upper echelons of this system; and it is implied, of course, that the composer with his intentions and aspirations has absolute, albeit temporary, control over the whole structure and its behaviour. This ranking, as does military ranking, reflects varying degrees of responsibility; conversely, it reflects varying degrees of constraint on behaviour. Ranking has another effect: like perspective in painting, it creates "focus" and "point of view." A listener is given the impression there are a foreground and a background to the music and cannot fail to notice that most of the "high-responsibility" events take place in the foreground, to which the background is an ambience or counterpoint. This is to say that the number of perceptual positions available to the listener is likely to be limited. The third observation I should like to make about the ranking system in the orchestra is this: it predicates the use of trained musicians. A trained musicians is, at the minimum, one who will produce a predictable sound given a specific instruction. His training teaches him to be capable of operating precisely like all the other members of his rank. It trains him, in fact, to subdue some of his own natural variety and thus to increase his reliability (predictability).-Brian Eno
 
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