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Did you know that "Classical Music is Inherently Racist?"

83K views 690 replies 66 participants last post by  Dan Ante 
#1 ·
I came across this gem in my google feed last night:

https://nmbx.newmusicusa.org/its-time-to-let-classical-music-die/

"Western classical music is not about culture. It's about whiteness. It's a combination of European traditions which serve the specious belief that whiteness has a culture-one that is superior to all others. Its main purpose is to be a cultural anchor for the myth of white supremacy. In that regard, people of color can never truly be pioneers of Western classical music. The best we can be are exotic guests: entertainment for the white audiences and an example of how Western classical music is more elite than the cultures of people of color."
:rolleyes:
 
#2 ·
If those things are true, then they are subconscious, and not overtly intentional. While the part about Western culture being "superior to all others," that attitude may well be true, even consciously, but the racist baggage that goes along with it is a largely subconscious part of the overall cultural outlook of the times.

It is true that Western Man has led Mankind for many centuries, unless we adopt a radical 'misanthropic' stance which sees civilized Western culture as the destroyer of the planet, threatening to destroy us all with H-bombs, and sees more 'primitive' cultures like the Hawaiians as being "superior" in their harmony with the environment.
 
#461 ·
If those things are true, then they are subconscious, and not overtly intentional. While the part about Western culture being "superior to all others," that attitude may well be true, even consciously, but the racist baggage that goes along with it is a largely subconscious part of the overall cultural outlook of the times.

It is true that Western Man has led Mankind for many centuries, unless we adopt a radical 'misanthropic' stance which sees civilized Western culture as the destroyer of the planet, threatening to destroy us all with H-bombs, and sees more 'primitive' cultures like the Hawaiians as being "superior" in their harmony with the environment.
Hmmm this was fairly...Moderate? But it seems you adopted that ''radical, misanthropic stance'' in the meantime...:(
 
#3 ·
What I find bizarre about the piece is the way the author attempts to nullify the traditions out of which "western classical music" springs as though they are merely some sort of parasitic entity that feeds off of cultures of people of color.

Like, I'm sure this guy has experienced racism. And I'm sure various figures throughout the history of CM have been racist, or have appropriated the cultures of others to use in their music. But all white musicians being a parasitic creative nullity? That's pretty rich. I don't think that's what they thought they were doing...

Cultures borrow from each other all the time, in every direction. And people are racists all the time. I do not, however, see anything particularly racist about classical music.
 
#9 ·
If the same questions were made about a Russian conductor, orchestra, and choir would it be legitimate or racist? The reality is people in Germany today would have a more similar cultural framework to Bach's than those living in Japan. I see no reason to conclude that it would, therefore, be more difficult to understand Bach's music if you were from a non-Germanic culture. Suzuki himself has stated that his shared culture with Bach (both of them being Lutheran's) helps in his interpretations and this all certainly isn't to say that this results in an insurmountable challenge.

Regardless, whether or not there is widespread racism in classical music the article is patently ridiculous. Capitalism, and the resulting wealth transfer out of the hands of a few uber-rich nobles (who largely supported Classical Music rather than popular/folk music) into the hands of many more people, (who largely support popular/folk music) has been one of the worst things that have happened to Classical Music; this is but one of many examples of clearly wrong statements.
 
#8 ·
He's not all together wrong. Go to any symphony concert in any city in the US and here's what you are likely to see: an audience that hugely older and white, an orchestra that has very few minorities although Asians make up a large percentage of many groups, a conductor who is probably a man of European extraction if not citizenship, and a program list that is dominated by dead, white, European males.

It's not always that way, of course. In the state of Arizona, the Phoenix Symphony is led by Tito Munoz. Former music directors included Theo Alcantara and Eduardo Mata. The current music director in Tucson is Jose Luis Gomez from Venezuela. The conductor of the Southern Arizona Symphony is Brazilian Linus Lerner. I know nothing (other than rumors) about their sexual preferences, and I don't care. All three orchestras play a lot of music by non-European composers. Charges of racism in classical music are just wrong - maybe this clod needs to get out of his bubble on the East coast and come see what is happening elsewhere. I don't ever expect to see big changes in Chicago, Cleveland, Boston, New York, or Philadelphia - the deep pocketed donors know what they want. Look at the southwest and you'll see a lot of progress in places like New Mexico, Arizona, Colorado, Texas and California.
 
G
#11 · (Edited)
Music is music, I find it absurd to think that classical music itself is inherently racist. But it has come from a culture which has racism woven into it's fabric. It can't escape that association and it can become a symbol for racism. Trump himself argued in a 2017 speech in Warsaw that western culture is superior because (among other things) "we write symphonies." This was given as a justification for exclusion of refugees, a clear white-supremacist dog whistle.
 
#12 · (Edited)
Music is music, I find it absurd to think that classical music itself is inherently racist. But it has come from a culture which has racism woven into it's fabric. It can't escape that association and it can become a symbol for racism. Trump itself argued in a 2017 speech in Warsaw that western culture is superior because (among other things) "we write symphonies." This was given as a justification for exclusion of refugees, a clear white-supremacist dog whistle.
Well, the fact is, music reflects the culture which created it. Western culture gave us the Enlightenment, and basically, it all comes from the Greeks. What did the Mayans do? They invented the calendar, and star-gazed, and gave us corn.

So what did we do with the corn? We made whiskey. :lol:

Classical music is inherently Western, and all the baggage, accomplishments, and guilt which goes along with it.
 
#280 ·
There is no such thing as 'whiteness' in this context, that's a political term that applies strongly to present day US rather than to historical art.
It applies to music theory, and the way it's taught.

"White racial framing" is relevant not just to the US, but the world.
 
#17 ·
You may be thinking of musicologist Susan McClary: "The point of recapitulation in the first movement of the Ninth is one of the most horrifying moments in music, as the carefully prepared cadence is frustrated, damming up energy which finally explodes in the throttling murderous rage of a rapist incapable of attaining release." :eek:
 
#18 · (Edited)
#55 · (Edited)
Which roots? Much of the harmonic language comes from France, Russia, and Europe more generally. It's cosmopolitan and polyglot in the extreme.
 
#25 ·
I see the article in the OP as extreme Leftist propaganda. There is a reason it is called "Western" Classical. And the music since the Renaissance was technically more advanced than in other cultures.
 
G
#26 · (Edited)
I see the article in the OP as extreme Leftist propaganda. There is a reason it is called "Western" Classical. And the music since the Renaissance was technically more advanced than in other cultures.
And this label helps us...how? It's as useful a statement as decrying CM for being racist.

A mildly interesting article which has a fair point to make, but which sets out on the wrong foot, IMO, by failing to distinguish between CM and CM culture. But then, where would the polemic be, if it didn't make controversial statements? Describing their relationship with CM as like being in a relationship with an abuser - and the reference to Stockholm Syndrome - is a clear signal that they want to attract our attention, make us read about their experience of music. They are entitled to their view. The way to deal with it is not to dismiss it as "propaganda", but engage with it and offer evidence to counter it.
 
#27 ·
Javanese gamelon music is inherently racist, because it is strictly melodic, has no harmony, and uses a different tuning.
 
#29 · (Edited)
I was thinking about this more and it simply will never make sense, because to write any new music of meaning you have to listen and study to what was written before. That musical culture will then forever be the founding blocks of what will come in the future, just like the Greek and Roman cultures are the base of Western civilization.

It's really a silly article written by a very confused man, and it holds no value or is even worth discussing.
 
#33 ·
I can see though why he's so confused because Middle Easterners are considered White in the US, yet he can kind of see through the lies of the social engineering, but can't quite point it out, so he lashes out in the most hilarious way.

But this is how it's supposed to be, if you haven't the wit to understand then you're in your rightful stratum in society.
 
#31 ·
It was tempted to leave a comment at the original link, but the article is less about music than the author's own profound racism. His viewpoint is a prime example of what Jordan Peterson would call "Cultural Marxism". By this, Peterson refers to a tendency among the "Left", by individuals self identified as such, to fit subjects into the "Marxist", as Peterson calls it, narrative of the oppressor and oppressed. This is a bad faith and destructive narrative in that anyone who disagrees with this premise is, by definition, the oppressor. In that sense, and you can see it in the comment section of the linked article, anyone who defends classical music, or disagrees with the OP, must be white, a racist, and/or benefiting from classical music's oppression. The argument is dangerous and insidious in that it's effectively a totalitarian argument. The only acceptable outcome, as the author makes clear, is the death of classical music. It's a zero sum game. If you define yourself as the oppressed and a given art form as oppressing you (and identify it with a given skin color), then there is no compromise. Again, the oppressor must die. So, to me, the article is less about classical music and more about an individual's rationalization for "benevolent" totalitarianism. It's about power.

Starting at 3:40, Peterson discusses what, I think, is directly applicable to the essay:



I know there are all kinds of arguments over Peterson's equation of post-modernism with cultural Marxism and whether Cultural Marxism is actually a thing, but insofar as Cultural Marxism is understood as referring to an argument that breaks down any given subject into the narrative of the oppressed and oppressor, and group identities, then it's a useful description.
 
#37 · (Edited by Moderator)
It was tempted to leave a comment at the original link, but the article is less about music than the author's own profound racism. His viewpoint is a prime example of what Jordan Peterson would call "Cultural Marxism". By this, Peterson refers to a tendency among the "Left", by individuals self identified as such, to fit subjects into the "Marxist", as Peterson calls it, narrative of the oppressor and oppressed. This is a bad faith and destructive narrative in that anyone who disagrees with this premise is, by definition, the oppressor. In that sense, and you can see it in the comment section of the linked article, anyone who defends classical music, or disagrees with the OP, must be white, a racist, and/or benefiting from classical music's oppression. The argument is dangerous and insidious in that it's effectively a totalitarian argument. The only acceptable outcome, as the author makes clear, is the death of classical music. It's a zero sum game. If you define yourself as the oppressed and a given art form as oppressing you (and identify it with a given skin color), then there is no compromise. Again, the oppressor must die. So, to me, the article is less about classical music and more about an individual's rationalization for "benevolent" totalitarianism. It's about power.

Starting at 3:40, Peterson discusses what, I think, is directly applicable to the essay:



I know there are all kinds of arguments over Peterson's equation of post-modernism with cultural Marxism and whether Cultural Marxism is actually a thing, but insofar as Cultural Marxism is understood as referring to an argument that breaks down any given subject into the narrative of the oppressed and oppressor, and group identities, then it's a useful description.
An outstanding post, vtpoet!
 
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#34 · (Edited by Moderator)
Why are we even talking about this? We're letting Gustav Dudamel be a conductor.
 
#36 · (Edited)
Without resorting to straw men, I take the thesis of the piece to be that not only is there 1. entrenched racism/tokenism within the moneyed halls of classical music institutions; but there is also 2. something inherently racist about the music itself, whether that is expressed through the cultural appropriation of the composers or by the themes within the music that are taken up by white supremacists as rallying cries for their cultural superiority.

Number 1 is probably true? I mean, as true as it is of any institution in Europe or the US with lots of money. But Number 2 is difficult for me to wrap my head around. Wagner, for instance, was a notorious anti-Semite, and his music was loved by the Nazis, but I still don't see how an individual listener, regardless of their background, would be prohibited from taking some other message or feeling from the music. Because music is so abstract and accesses our limbic systems so directly, I don't see why any political stance is "inherent" to it. Like, I can listen to Dvorak without giving two figs about Czech independence, or Beethoven without pausing to consider Napoleon's grasping for European empire. As far as cultural appropriation, I find it very hard to be offended as long as it's not a racialized caricature. Everybody appropriates everything. The wheel, the stone axe, a drum beat, three point perspective, Facebook. Yawn.

Side issue: What I do not understand in the piece is the idea that "whiteness" represents a cultural nullity. I could certainly see that "whiteness" is a pastiche of contributing cultures. I fail to see how it necessarily negates its contributing cultures, though.
 
#611 · (Edited)
Because music is so abstract and accesses our limbic systems so directly, I don't see why any political stance is "inherent" to it.
Meaning--political or otherwise--is not "inherent" in music; it's constructed, and through processes of socialization we understand music semiotically, a system of meanings/signs/codes common to those who create it and to those to whom it is meant to communicate.

In his Concerto #17 in G Major (K.453), 3rd mov't., Mozart musically depicts the historical animosity between the "enlightened" Habsburg monarchy (read "white") & the un-enlightened Ottoman Empire (read not white, i.e., Other).

In the 4th variation Mozart pulls out every musical-semiotic code he can to represent the Turks as slippery, duplicitous, irrational Others, which contemporary audiences would've easily picked up on. If that's not a "political stance," I don't know what is.

Classical music racist? Perhaps the OP has a point(?).
 
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